# Kids in school refusing to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705 "2001-01-12T15:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/101 "2001-01-14T03:26:04Z")
I’m going to repeat myself a little here, because I think it’s worth saying again. > [@](#): > > There comes a time in each person’s life when he needs to stand up for what he believes in. In current times, the belief systems, in my opinion, have degraded to honoring money, power, luxury and one-upmanship. Schools have, thanks to the parents, lost control of the children they need to educate. Without guidance, kids are kids and revert to childish barbarism. Schools had loose dress codes, meaning kids had to dress neatly but in almost what they desired. Not like today, where they arrive in baggy, draggy, gangsta dress, wearing shirts with slogans, sporting gang colors, weird hair cuts, skin heads and beards. > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, we apply the limitations of the Constitution with no fear that freedom to be intellectually and spiritually diverse or even contrary will disintegrate the social organization. – From [_West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/319/624.html) That decision was handed down in the middle of World War II, when this country was in an all-out mobilization to fight a total war against deadly enemies across the globe. That’s the sort of thing which makes me feel patriotic pride about my country. > [@](#): > > Attitudes were watched. > [@](#): > > Thoughtcrime was not a thing that could be concealed forever. You might dodge successfully for a > while, even for years, but sooner or later they were bound to get you. – [George Orwell, _1984_](http://www.cp-tel.net/miller/BilLee/quotes/Orwell.html) ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/102 "2001-01-14T04:59:42Z")
The OP dealt with the issue of standing (or not) during the pledge of allegiance…the discussion has of course branched out in a couple of directions, however, I still have not read any valid reasons in this thread as to why the expectation for the child to stand is outrageous…Certainly no more outrageous than asking for all to rise in a court of law…it’s respect, plain and simple. I think that anyone should be able to stand without having to sacrifice their personal belief system. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/103 "2001-01-14T05:10:30Z")
I still think Justice Kennedy put it best in his concurring opinion in Texas v. Johnson (the flagburning case from the 1988 Republican Convention): > [@](#): > > **It is poignant but fundamental that the flag protects those who hold it in contempt.** (Yes, I’m repeating myself.) ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/104 "2001-01-14T05:36:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krispy Original \* > \*\*The OP dealt with the issue of standing (or not) during the pledge of allegiance…the discussion has of course branched out in a couple of directions, however, I still have not read any valid reasons in this thread as to why the expectation for the child to stand is outrageous… \*\* There’s nothing outrageous at all about the _expectation_ that children should rise. The differences arose about what the proper reaction is when a child fails to meet that expectation. The majority view among the posters so far has been that the proper reaction is “live and let live.” The OP stated that the proper reaction was to drag the child down to the principal’s office for disciplinary action. He also stated that failing to rise for the pledge is disrespect equivalent to burning or spitting on the flag, and that his well-justified reaction to such disrespect is to break open the offender’s head. And those of us that think otherwise (apparently including at least two American military servicemen) are all scum who spit on Vietnam veterans. I am patriot enough to believe that, unlike East Germany which built a wall bristling with machine guns around its “worker’s paradise” to keep all the workers from running away, that we in America do not need to use the force of the principal’s paddle or Moongazer’s fists to compel allegiance to our country. > [@](#): > > \*\*Certainly no more outrageous than asking for all to rise in a court of law…it’s respect, plain and simple. I think that anyone should be able to stand without having to sacrifice their personal belief system. \*\* I work in courtrooms many times a year, and respect the expectation to rise for the judge and jurors. Every once in a while, someone doesn’t rise, usually because he’s busy and didn’t pay attention to the bailiff. I never saw the bailiff do anything about it. The respect for the court and the jurors is expected, and reasonably so. But it is a respect freely given, not compelled by force. That is the root of the disagreement here. You may think that anyone should be able to stand without sacrificing their personal belief system. I think Muslims should be able to eat pork without sacrificing their personal belief system. But the Muslims disagree with me, and a lot of children and adults disagree with you. I can enjoy my pork without the Muslims joining me, and I can pledge allegiance to my flag without the Jehovah’s Witnesses joining me. I hope you can too. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/105 "2001-01-14T05:48:46Z")
Ok, Mr **Moon** … I will not even bother writing another long, well thought out post because it is obvious you have not read a thing anyone has said!! Either that, or you are too stupid to undertand them. I just have two things, one question, one statement. First of all. You have absolutely no idea about public schools! As a public school teacher, I can say that just about everything you said was completely WRONG. Stop pulling stuff out of your ass just to make a point. If you require details, I’ll be glad to enlighten you… Second: So your daddy and your brother fought for this country. Where the hell were you? Are you too scared to go out and join the military, or are you just too busy pummeling domestic citizens to go out and do something meaningful!? It’s so odd that most of the arrogant “My Country, love it or get the hell out” rednecks, are always the ones who have never served their country in any capacity. So, what’s your excuse? Flat feet? Heart Murmer? Nah, I think you would rather stay at home and bitch about other people and stress out over all the citizens and foreigners insulting you and disrespecting _your_ country all day. ---
**Author:** ![Krispy\_Original](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ec9cab/32.png) [@Krispy\_Original](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krispy_Original)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/106 "2001-01-14T05:57:30Z")
Danimal, I understand your point-of-view and I respect it, however, your analogy between standing and eating pork is quite a reach… ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/107 "2001-01-14T06:30:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMoonGazer \* > \*\*There comes a time in each person’s life when he needs to stand up for what he believes in. In current times, the belief systems, in my opinion, have degraded to honoring money, power, luxury and one-upmanship. Schools have, thanks to the parents, lost control of the children they need to educate. \*\* You have a simplistic, inaccurate idea of school systems. My parents have been teachers for over thirty years each; I just graduated from high school last year. Have parents played a part in the downfall of public schools? Yes. Has the system itself done the same thing? Yes. The same government that you claim to hold so dear isn’t doing very much for education. > [@](#): > > Not like today, where they arrive in baggy, draggy, gangsta dress, wearing shirts with slogans, sporting gang colors, weird hair cuts, skin heads and beards. As opposed to… disco clothing, afros, bell bottoms, leather jackets, or miniskirts? Paper dresses, platform shoes? Or are these things just better because your generation wore them? Flipped through an old yearbook recently? > [@](#): > > Parents accepted teachers physically grabbing their kids as needed and rarely was anyone injured or abused. Slugging a teacher got the kid jailed, suspended, parents went to court and fines were levied, plus the kid might or might not be able to return to school. Again, I question your memory as well as your understanding of the system. Teachers can and do use proper force to break up fights. People don’t just go around beating up teachers without any consequences. For example, in my sophmore year a teacher was breaking up a fight between two students and had her hip broken. Both were arrested, charged, and convicted for assult. > [@](#): > > Lockers, the property of the school, did not require search warrants. Nor do they now, providing that there is probable cause. Students do have limited rights in terms of personal property, but I’ll defer to a Doper more educated in legalities to explain that if you don’t get it. > [@](#): > > Kids never, ever dared accuse a teacher of molestation, just because they wanted to get back at him or her. Nor did they accuse teachers of molestation who were actually molestors. Your point? > [@](#): > > A kid no longer needs to dress out in gym. A kid may not be ‘bullied’ by his PE coach. So you’re saying that a mob mentality should rule- hey, the kid has a problem with taking a shower, let’s beat him up. And as for dress codes- you’d be hard pressed to find a school that doesn’t have one. How strict they are varies, but I doubt any school in this country would allow a shirt that had, for example, a racist statement on it. Oh, I’d like to see something that proves a correlation between dress and behavior. > [@](#): > > A kid knows that no one, including his folks, may actually force him to do anything and if he is too friggin’ stupid to get to the next grade, the school will be pressured to pass him anyhow or face lawsuits for failing to educate the little b\*\*\*\*\*d, who f\*\*\*\*d off in class because the teacher had no means to make him behave and listen. Schools are understaffed and underfunded. Classrooms are growing larger, money is less, and about half of the teachers in the country are retiring in the next several years. Are you doing anything to help? Sometimes the best option is to let the “little bastards,” as you charmingly call them, to do their own thing and actually work on teaching the other kids in the class who are listening. > [@](#): > > We, you all allowed it. You fail to teach your kids respect or pride in their nation or anything else. And you teach your kids that violence is entirely justifiable. I’ll stick to my morals, thanks. > [@](#): > > Most of you were little kids then, so you don’t recall the threat of Kruschev made to the US: “We will bury you.” And the fat f\*\*k meant it. I think you’re underestimating the ages and backgrounds of the posters here. There aren’t too many who don’t remember the Cold War. > [@](#): > > My kids know why they should stand and respect the flag. My kids know American history. Actually, I’d like to know a little bit more about your grasp of American history. Exactly when were these “good old days” of education that you speak so highly of? During the days of segregated schools? Or the days when women after graduation could be housewives, nurses, or secretaries? Or when the country was erupting in protests for equal rights? Or maybe you’re speaking of the era where every budget save defense was slashed across the boards? But that would be the 1980s and early 90s, which has produced little bastards like me. Please, indulge us. I’d love to hear this. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/108 "2001-01-14T06:31:24Z")
[Hijack] I never got the whole “Love it or leave it” thing. I love my parents a lot, but we’ve had some furious arguments. My wife loves me, but I’ve driven her crazy with the things I’ve screwed up. Why do people assume that criticizing something is a sign of not loving it? I’d think it would be the other way around. Usually, the people who criticize a country are those qho love it the most. If they didn’t they wouldn’t bother to speak up. [/Hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/109 "2001-01-14T07:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > There comes a time in each person’s life when he needs to stand up for what he believes in. Interesting platitude. > [@](#): > > In current times, the belief systems, in my opinion, have degraded to honoring money, power, luxury and one-upmanship. Please explain how your unlawful assault was not your honoring power or being one-upmanship. > [@](#): > > Schools have, thanks to the parents, lost control of the children they need to educate. Cites, statistics, evidence. Do these three words mean anything to you? > [@](#): > > Without guidance, kids are kids and revert to childish barbarism. Ah, the “Lord of the Flies” theory. Cites, statistics, evidence, please. > [@](#): > > Schools had loose dress codes, meaning kids had to dress neatly but in almost what they desired. Not like today, where they arrive in baggy, draggy, gangsta dress, wearing shirts with slogans, sporting gang colors, weird hair cuts, skin heads and beards. Some schools today, both private and public, have dress codes. Some of those public schools even require {gasp} uniforms. > [@](#): > > Parents accepted teachers physically grabbing their kids as needed and rarely was anyone injured or abused. Not all parents accepted an adult abusing their child. The mere act of assualting the child is abuse. > [@](#): > > Slugging a teacher got the kid jailed, suspended, parents went to court and fines were levied, plus the kid might or might not be able to return to school. Conversely, slugging the child can get the teacher jailed, fired, the teacher and the school taken to court and fines can be levied plus the teacher can lose his license to teach. > [@](#): > > Lockers, the property of the school, did not require search warrants. Well, that’s a bit murky. The lockers are the property of the school; however, the backpacks and purses are the property of the individual citizen. > [@](#): > > Parents had no problem, if there was a reason, to have their kids locker searched. Well, apparently once some parents found out about the unlawful searches and seizures of their children’s property, the matter was litigated by some parents who did have a problem with such unlawful searches and seizures. > [@](#): > > Now warrants are needed. Actually, the warrants were needed all along. The court decisions have recognized that fact. > [@](#): > > A disruptive child in class could be removed, by force if necessary. A violent child, while committing an act of violence or threatening to, can be removed by force if necessary. The police departments are equipped and trained to do so. > [@](#): > > Touch a kid now and dad shows up with his team of lawyers. I certainly hope he also has at least one police officer in that retinue to arrest the individual who assaulted the child. > [@](#): > > Attitudes were watched. Which society do you like better, 1984 or Brave New World? > [@](#): > > Thugs got treated like thugs You were treated as a thug–you were arrested for “thuggery” aka “assault.” My money is on that being because you’re a thug. > [@](#): > > and removed if necessary. The police officer who arrested you removed you since it was evidently necessary. > [@](#): > > Children being suspected of carrying contraband could be searched, Not without a valid warrant for such a search. See the United States Constitution (the document, not the ship). > [@](#): > > and parents approved. Apparently, not all parents approved or there would have been no litigation. > [@](#): > > Now, you need a warrant and an officer present. Actually, you have always needed a warrant. It just took a while for the courts to recognize that fact. > [@](#): > > Lawyers line up to let you know why a kid, who may be dripping crack, may not be searched by teachers. Because he may not be “dripping crack” or anything else. Now, if there’s sufficient evidence, lawfully obtained, then a lawful arrest will be conducted. Pesky little thing to you, that Constitution, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Kids never, ever dared accuse a teacher of molestation, just because they wanted to get back at him or her. Last time I checked, both Slander and Executing a False Police Report were crimes. > [@](#): > > Now, it happens a lot and not just in school, because the kids know that the trouble they cause the adult will be expensive and severe and even when he or she is found innocent, many will believe he actually did it and his local career will be ruined. The career will be ruined thanks to folks who don’t give a hoot about “innoncent until proved guilty.” Oops! I forgot you’re one of those folks. That’s what you were when you pounded an innocent person into the ground. > [@](#): > > Plus, as they are kids, very little punishment will happen to them for starting the lie. It is a win/win situation for the kid. Do you consider a minor being tried as an adult and imprisoned or a minor being incarcerated for years in a juvenile detention facility as a win? Not everyone does. > [@](#): > > Parents are responsible for this for not instilling respect in their kids. Generalize much? {My apologies for not attributing this to the individual who originally posted it in another thread; however, it certainly fits here!} Define “instilling respect in their kids.” You’ve already informed us how you attempted to instill respect into an innocent person. > [@](#): > > A kid no longer needs to dress out in gym. I don’t suppose you have any proof of that? In the schools here (California), a child taking PE classes is required to wear the appropriate attire for the activity. > [@](#): > > A kid may not be ‘bullied’ by his PE coach. Correct. Bullying a child is abuse. > [@](#): > > A kid may not be ridiculed or harshly disciplined for disrupting class. Ridiculing is juvenile and constitutes bullying the child. The school administration has other, more effective, means of enforcing discipline: suspension, expulsion, lower grade, etc. > [@](#): > > A kid may dress as wildly as he chooses in school and any effort to discourage this promotes lawsuits concerning civil rights, civil liberties, racism and discrimination. You really shouldn’t generalize that much. After all, there are schools, public schools even, which require the children to wear uniforms, schools which require clothing to not have slogans or racist comments on them, and schools which require clothing to not be too revealing. > [@](#): > > Oh, yah, lets not forget suppression of Freedom of Expression. Why not? You already did. Or have you forgotten that little incident which landed you in jail? [Note to Admin]Any chance of getting a little burning flag “smilie” here?[/Note to Admin] > [@](#): > > A kid knows that no one, including his folks, may actually force him to do anything Please explain how your unlawful assault on an innocent person was not forcing that person to do, or not do, something. > [@](#): > > and if he is too friggin’ stupid to get to the next grade, the school will be pressured to pass him anyhow I’ve addressed this misconception above. Feel free, though, to do a web search or to contact your local governmental representative to see what’s being done to prevent this. > [@](#): > > or face lawsuits for failing to educate the little b\*\*\*\*\*d, who f\*\*\*\*d off in class because the teacher had no means to make him behave and listen. So you do generalize a lot. > [@](#): > > In short, thanks to parents, if a kid doesn’t want to do something in school, he doesn’t have to. Are you sure it’s the parents’ fault and not the child’s? > [@](#): > > He doesn’t have to listen to teacher, he doesn’t have to obey the dress code, Well, not listening to the teacher is a good way to not know the material for the next test. If the child wants to fail, then he’s probably going to fail. Oops, I forgot you consider that the fault of the parents and not the child. > [@](#): > > he doesn’t have to submit to searches for contraband, he doesn’t have to be questioned without a lawyer present, That pesky Constitution! > [@](#): > > he doesn’t have to attend school functions, Have you ever heard of Freedom of Association? One has the right to associate or not associate with whom he please so long as one’s not committing or conspiring to commit a crime. > [@](#): > > he doesn’t have to be cooperative, Nobody is required to cooperate with a violation of his rights. > [@](#): > > he doesn’t have to do a drug test, Not without a court order, he doesn’t. That pesky Constitution again! > [@](#): > > he doesn’t have to learn to read, doesn’t have to learn to write, to learn to do math, to learn history, to learn English, to get good grades to pass, I don’t recall the Constitution requiring anyone to do any of this. > [@](#): > > and now, he doesn’t have to stand up for the Pledge. That’s because the child’s refusal to stand for the pledge is protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution on both Free Speech and Freedom of Religion grounds. > [@](#): > > Why do you f\*\*\*s send your kids to public schools anyhow, when you agree with them just sitting there like lumps of mold, doing nothing because that’s their right? Then you bitch about teachers not keeping schools safe, not teaching your kids right, and too much drugs and violence in school. Why, to get an education, of course! I have never said I approved of them “sitting there like lumps of mold.” Luckily, the public schools which I’ve encountered do a far better job of educating the children than the one you attended, evidently. > [@](#): > > We, you all allowed it. Care to provide cites, statistics, evidence? > [@](#): > > You fail to teach your kids respect or pride in their nation or anything else. I teach by example. You teach by force. I think my method is better. At least it doesn’t land me in jail overnight. > [@](#): > > I’m not blind to the faults of the US, but I respect and admire it. Then how about honoring its basic law, the Constitution? > [@](#): > > I respect it’s basic founding philosophies, the essential principals, I can safely say that you are telling a lie here. You have already said that you don’t respect Freedom of Speech. > [@](#): > > and it’s great history in humanities throughout the world. What? > [@](#): > > I respect the Flag as a symbol of the nation. Since the country does not have a State religion, then the flag is a symbol and not a sacred relic. > [@](#): > > Destroy the flag in front of me for some stupid reason and foul it in the dirt, So my Freedom of Speech is “some stupid reason?” > [@](#): > > and I will probably hurt you, badly. And you will be arrested, and this time face trial and incarceration of longer than one night. > [@](#): > > The symbol of our nation is part of me and I it, What metaphysical process caused this to be true? > [@](#): > > so when you spit on it, you spit on me, on my fathers efforts in WW2, on my brothers efforts in Ethiopia in the Army, on the soldiers in Dessert Storm, on the soldiers who died for what they believed in during Vietnam, No, someone who spits on a flag is merely spitting on a piece of cloth. He’s also exercising his right to Free Speech. > [@](#): > > and on the nonmilitary greats who gave the world electric power, autos, medicines, greater food production, civil rights, a safe haven from oppression and equal rights for all. You are aware that medicine and civil rights, at least, predate the United States, aren’t you? Ancient Israel had six cities of refuge: Kedesh, Shechem, Hebron, Bezer, Ramoth, and Golan. Oh, and how about equal rights for that innocent person you pounded into the ground? > [@](#): > > You grumble and gripe about 'Nam, but Americans went there believing in what they did, fought under circumstances never before imagined and died under horrible conditions, but they fought. When they came home, you spit on them. Called them baby killers. Dishonored their efforts. I have done none of that. Anyway, I believe the situation in Viet Nam was far more complex than you make it out to have been. By the way, what were the French doing there before our arrival? > [@](#): > > The war they fought helped stop the spread of communism in the long run by teaching the communist country’s that Americans could and would fight. So you don’t remember the United States being an ally with one Communist country during World War II? Seems to be that not only did that country know that Americans could and would fight, but counted on it in their military planning after we entered that war. > [@](#): > > Most of you were little kids then, Cites, statistics, evidence? > [@](#): > > so you don’t recall the threat of Kruschev made to the US: “We will bury you.” And the fat f\*\*k meant it. Yeah, and he was mistaken. As are you on the issue of the pledge. > [@](#): > > So you use things like 'Nam as a reason to disrespect the flag. Cites, statistics, evidence? > [@](#): > > You dredge up American failures for the same reasons, forgetting about the many, many great deeds the nation has done. One great deed is the defense of the rights you feel free to trample. > [@](#): > > You live in a free nation, which, in my opinion, is the greatest, and agree with kids not standing up for the pledge. I agree with an individual availing himself of the rights which the Constitution guarantees him. > [@](#): > > You probably never bothered to explain to your little demented off spring just why it is honorable to stand up for the Pledge. Class: which poster in this thread has evidenced dementia? > [@](#): > > Then again, you probably don’t know why yourselves. Do you know why it’s important for someone’s right to Free Speech be protected from thugs such as you? > [@](#): > > Just remember, these little f\*\*\*s who will not respect the flag now, will be the leaders of tomorrow and then, you’ll pay the price. Unfortunately, we all will. [sarcasm]Ooooh! I’m scared now![/sarcasm] > [@](#): > > My kids know why they should stand and respect the flag. My bet is they know you’ll beat the tar out of them if they don’t stand and recite. > [@](#): > > My kids know American history. Too bad you don’t know the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Adventurious82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e495f1/32.png) [@Adventurious82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Adventurious82)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/110 "2001-01-14T08:17:54Z")
A little comment, MONTY. Children do not have civil rights, being the charge of their parents. They get their rights through their parents, or did until lately. The basic reason was that children are not wise enough to do things like take responsibility for their actions, make good value judgments, or to react with acceptable maturity. That’s why they’re not allowed to consume booze until 21, nor buy smokes, nor be allowed into X movies, nor to drive until a certain age. Parents screwed up the school systems by taking away the authority from the educators and suing anyone who attempted to discipline their kids. Others went nuts by over doing it on children’s rights until today, every kid above the age of 7 knows that adults can do nothing to them and just how easy it is to get an adult into major trouble. Being kids, they flaunt this ‘freedom’ and there are rising incidents of kids getting adults in hot water by claiming they were beaten or molested when they were not. I agree that parents do not instill proper respect nor discipline in their kids today, who seem to hold little but music stars sacred. This lack of respect shows up in something as simple as refusing to stand in honor for the pledge of allegiance. Our school systems are a laughing stock because none are allowed to discipline unruly or rebellious kids. I would guess that in those other nations were their educational system is far superior, teachers are allowed to discipline the kids, parents do not run with the family lawyer to the school each time a teacher grabs their kid by the arm and makes him sit down and they don’t force educators, by threatening funds, to pass kids who do not deserve to be passed. Parent pressure the politicians to improve the school results, these worthy people respond by threatening to cut funds to schools with low figures, these schools, unable to discipline kids, respond by forcing teachers to pass kids who do not deserve it. The blame goes right back to the parents, who figure that their immature children should not be forced to do anything that they do not want to do, like learn the basics. Not showing respect for the Flag is just one sign of something rotten going on, for respect for the law with kids is low, respect for adults is low, respect for the personal rights of others is low and they have learned that they can do what they want with virtual immunity. Like steal cars and trash them for joyriding. Steal from stores and people. Use drugs. Shoot each other up. They can carry drugs into school and stash them knowing that a warrant will be needed to search them or their lockers. A warrant cannot be obtained without probable cause. They can and do go to school stoned and refuse pee tests that would get them caught and get them help because a few stand on their rights not to take them and parents back them up, which only contributes to the greater problem which started the pee tests in the first place. The school tries to clean up the mess with the kids and parents get in the action and block them. Your child is not a legal adult. His or her rights come from you only, aside from the very basics for food, shelter, and freedom from abuse. If you read the news, you’ll know that health care is not a guaranteed right for your child. The law dictates that your child must have a minimum education either in a school for the public or through certified home education. Instead of defending a kids right to refuse to obey the school rules, perhaps you should be teaching him that you are in charge, that rules are there for reasons, that one does not always get the luxury of being able to do everything that one wants. Maybe you should teach him respect for his country. Either that, or one day the draft might return and he will discover that when his country calls him, he has not the luxury of saying no. Then he will discover what the military does to those refusing to salute or respect the flag or those who stand on their rights. He probably will not survive. Rules in the military are to save his life. Rules in school are to guarantee an adequate education. Parents have hobbled the very educators who have to enforce the rules which are to prepare the kids for adult life. BTW, I stand and say the pledge when I attend PTA and Boy Scout meetings. I have no problems with it. It is an honor to do so. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/111 "2001-01-14T10:27:28Z")
So sorry, but I snipped your irrelevant rant prior to this point… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMoonGazer \* > We, you all allowed it. You fail to teach your kids respect or pride in their nation or anything else. As I said, oh He-Who-Refuses-to-Read-Anything-Other-Than-Rush, first - I have no children. Second, so long as my children respect both themselves and others, all other self-disciplines should follow, no? I’m sorry I don’t see the need to treat children like the mindless automatons you see them as. You, however, have more than shown us your mindless automaton jack-booted commie right-denying thug attitude. If I were a wanker like you, I’d be hollering “America, love it or leave it!” at you for the way you would trample on our precious Constitution. Actually, if I were more like you, I’d beat the living shit out of you for it, but I’m not like you - thankfully - I respect your right to be a self-righteous prick as much as you wish. > [@](#): > > I’m not blind to the faults of the US, but I respect and admire it. No offense, sir, but your patriotic diatribe from posts past has reflected nothing but an ignorance of the harm our great nation has caused. All nations have their good points - and their bad points - and people like you ignore the bad points in favor of a mentally masturbatory cause. > [@](#): > > Destroy the flag in front of me for some stupid reason and foul it in the dirt, and I will probably hurt you, badly. Good God [assuming you’re a right wing Christian - are you?] - you still don’t get it, you ignorant f\*ck of a human being. You are the worst humanity has to offer - well, ok, suicidal homicidal maniacs may top the list, but your ABSOLUTE GODFORSAKEN IGNORANCE of the concepts embodied in the very document you purport to defend is amazing!!! Did you leave your goddamned brain on the doorstep on your way in??? Nevermind, everyone with an ounce of grey matter in their head knows the answer. > [@](#): > > My kids know why they should stand and respect the flag. My kids know American history. And also because DADDY WILL BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF THEIR SKULLS IF THEY DON’T! Isn’t that right you little jack-booted thug? ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/112 "2001-01-14T10:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Adventurious82 \* > Our school systems are a laughing stock because none are allowed to discipline unruly or rebellious kids. Umm, no, our school systems are a laughing stock because they turn out mal-educated children - get it right. What this has to do with the pledge is anyone’s guess - but 'tis a lovely strawman you’ve constructed! 🙂 > [@](#): > > The blame goes right back to the parents, who figure that their immature children should not be forced to do anything that they do not want to do, like learn the basics. Not showing respect for the Flag is just one sign of something rotten going on, for respect for the law with kids is low, respect for adults is low… Sorry, last time I checked, respect for the flag was not a law, no matter how much the right-wingers wish it were. So sorry, please try again! > [@](#): > > respect for the personal rights of others is low Cough cough…like respecting freedom of speech and expression? Oh, the irony, be still my heart! > [@](#): > > and they have learned that they can do what they want with virtual immunity. Like steal cars and trash them for joyriding. Yup, everyone knows that 99% of students who do not say the pledge, also steal cars and then go joyriding. Give us a citation on your stats, or give us a f\*cking break - which do you think is easiest for you? > [@](#): > > Instead of defending a kids right to refuse to obey the school rules, perhaps you should be teaching him that you are in charge, that rules are there for reasons, that one does not always get the luxury of being able to do everything that one wants. Maybe you should teach him respect for his country. I notice none of the flag-worshippers have answered the idea of what if a school required the students to bow down in respect to a statue of the President - after all, he is the leader of the free world, a global embodiment of all we hold dear. Yup, that’s right, kneeling before Bill Clinton more often than Monica could ever hope for in a wet dream - somehow I think you Republinazis would have a hell of a time accepting it. You’ve nicely glossed over it. > [@](#): > > Rules in the military are to save his life. Rules in school are to guarantee an adequate education. Oh give me a break - please, oh educated one, do enlighten us as to which of the subjects the Pledge of Allegiance affords us so much to-this-point hidden knowledge? I was under the impression that the sciences, maths, social studies, and the like were an adequate education. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/113 "2001-01-14T10:39:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Adventurious82 \* > BTW, I stand and say the pledge when I attend PTA and Boy Scout meetings. I have no problems with it. It is an honor to do so. Oh, one more thing, what about those atheists and queers that have infiltrated your Boy Scout meetings - how do you handle them and their darned unrighteousness, oh mighty one? ---
**Author:** ![Mikahw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mikahw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikahw)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/114 "2001-01-14T10:49:48Z")
I’ve always wondered why kids are supposed to pledge to something they didn’t understand. Hell, I didn’t even know all the words to the pledge in 1st grade (indivisible was invisible to me, etc.), yet alone what they meant. What would you do if I handed you a contract in a language you didn’t understand? What If I told you that you would sign it, or disiplinary actions would have been taken place? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/115 "2001-01-14T14:21:06Z")
TheMoonGazer said: > [@](#): > > This open disrespect of the symbol of the nation seems to me to be a sign of a greater problem happening among the populace. Yeah, like recognition of the First Amendment. Horrors! > [@](#): > > You place your kids in a school that has certain rules and regulation which they want everyone to follow, but then it’s fine by you if they choose not to follow the one concerning respect for Flag Yes, because forcing a loyalty pledge shouldn’t be part of the school anyway. There is no legitimate educational reason for it to be there. This is not quiet time for study or respect for the teacher or going to class at the proper time. This is an attempt to force certain beliefs. > [@](#): > > Anyone has the legal right to publicly dishonor the Flag. I have the personal right to defend the flag and face the consequences afterwards. And where do you fantasize that you get such a “right”? > [@](#): > > There was a time when people were outraged at others desecrating the flag And some still are. But first of all, failure to recite the Pledge is not “desecrating the flage,” and, second, being outraged at something doesn’t mean it’s okay to inflict physical harm on the person doing it. I’m outraged that W. will be our next president. Does that give me the right to find somebody who voted for him and beat the crap out of them? > [@](#): > > So, why should you encourage your kids to stand for the pledge? I mean, they might have a different view, though as kids, it certainly is not often the right or well thought out one. You have shown here that the view of a four-year-old is probably more well-thought-out, and more likely correct, than yours. > [@](#): > > So, if they decide not to stand and respect the flag, that’s fine by you. That’s right. > [@](#): > > There comes a time in each person’s life when he needs to stand up for what he believes in. And you apparently believe in using physical violence to enforce your particular viewpoing. Bravo! > [@](#): > > I’m not blind to the faults of the US, but I respect and admire it. I respect it’s basic founding philosophies, the essential principals, and it’s great history in humanities throughout the world. I respect the Flag as a symbol of the nation. Your actions show that you actually _don’t_ respect any of these things. For if you did, you would understand that the First Amendment gives the rights that you would like to take away through physical violence. > [@](#): > > Destroy the flag in front of me for some stupid reason and foul it in the dirt, and I will probably hurt you, badly. And you will hopefully go to jail for a long time. Or, better yet, be severely injured in self-defense. > [@](#): > > You live in a free nation, which, in my opinion, is the greatest, and agree with kids not standing up for the pledge. Yes. See, that’s what living in a free nation is all about. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/116 "2001-01-14T14:22:32Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] super\_head said: > [@](#): > > you still don’t get it, you ignorant f\*ck of a human being. I’m presuming you, however, “get” that you are not supposed to be tossing around personal insults here in Great Debates, right? As such, I can expect that it won’t happen again, correct? * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/117 "2001-01-14T15:10:41Z")
You know that phrase that you hear bantered about now and then, the one that has come up a few times in this thread – “America, love it or leave it.” Well… _I left it._ And migrated to Sweden, of all the places on the planet to migrate to. Every now and then I think to myself, “Jeez, Svinny, yer freezin’ yer arse off up here in the Great White North! Ain’t it about time you moved home and got yerself some of that good old Tennessee sunshine?” (Quick global geography lesson: Tennessee lies on the same latitude as Morroco. Gothenburg lies on the same latitude as _Juno, Alaska_. I’m freezing my nards off up here.) Then I read a post like the ones written by **TheMoonGazer** or **Adventurious82** and it all comes back to me, and I remember once again, unfortunately, one of the main reasons why I wouldn’t want to live in Tennesse anymore – or anywhere else in the States, for that matter. To even enter into the arena of debate with people who hold such opinions is to degrade oneself, but alas, such people are all too common back home. Sweden may be cold as hell, but at least I don’t have to waste my time arguing over such trash, or worrying that my freely expressed opinions might get my head busted. So you may sleep better tonight, **TheMoonGazer** , knowing that the faschistoid reasoning and actions of persons such as yourself and your compatriots has successfully chased off at least one free-thinking individual who naively believed that he was guarenteed that right under the laws of the land. For what use does the America government have of jack-booted thought-police to monitor its citizens, when half the population freely takes on that role itself? **TheMoonGazer** wrote: > [@](#): > > Destroy the flag in front of me for some stupid reason and foul it in the dirt, and I will probably hurt you, badly. The symbol of our nation is part of me and I it, so when you spit on it, you spit on me, on my fathers efforts in WW2, on my brothers efforts in Ethiopia in the Army, on the soldiers in Dessert Storm, on the soldiers who died for what they believed in during Vietnam, and on the nonmilitary greats who gave the world electric power, autos, medicines, greater food production, civil rights, a safe haven from oppression and equal rights for all. I too have served. I got out just before Desert Storm, and a lot of my friends were there. I say speak for yourself, **TheMoonGazer**. I do not feel personally insulted by someone burning a flag – but I am personally insulted by your unmitigated attack on a fellow citizen. And if I do feel insulted by someone else, I’m perfectly capable of dealing with it on my own terms – I don’t need your help, and don’t appreciate you trying to justify your own lowly behavior as a pretense to protect me from offense, insult or injury. Stick a sock in it. As for that last bit, “…civil rights, a safe haven from oppression and equal rights for all,” you clearly don’t really live in America. You must be somewhere on the moon. > [@](#): > > My kids know why they should stand and respect the flag. My kids know American history. Maybe. However, I doubt that you know very much about American history at all, or you probably wouldn’t be such a rabid, mouth-foaming “patriot.” You and “patriots” like you give America a bad name abroad, one that I have to deal with on an almost daily basis. Thanks for nothing. As for the OP, the question is moot: we shouldn’t be forcing kids to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school in the first place. When did all of this happen? When I went to high school in the 70’s, we never recited the Pledge. I haven’t recited it since I was in second grade. I go away for 10 years, and you guys all develop some sort of weirdo faschist ritualism! The Pledge of Allegiance should be Unconstitutional in a free society. I don’t think Sweden even has a pledge. By the way, this post should not be construed as condoning criminal behavior and such by kids. While the poster sees these problems as intimately related with the fact that kids don’t stand up for the PoA, I don’t. A lot of the other issues in the US school system addressed by **TheMoonGazer** are a problem; I just don’t understand how they are connected to the Pledge. ---
**Author:** ![Fredge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@Fredge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fredge)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/118 "2001-01-14T15:38:49Z")
It would seem to me that just as the right to religious freedom entails the right to chose no religion, so too the right to freedom of speach also entails the right to keep one’s mouth closed whenever they so wish. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/119 "2001-01-14T17:06:19Z")
> [@](#): > > No, no – didn’t you read the OP? TheMoonGazer beat up that guy who showed a lack of love and respect for the country. Problem solved! BWAHAHAHAHAA… Patriatism is a virtue of the vicious! Oh, and to clear up the present legal issue of searching students on school grounds: The school board is allowed to search every locker every bookbag, every purse, pocketbook, bag, box, case, car, trunk, etc. Anything that comes on school grounds is subject to search!!! Why you ask? Because the safety of the students at large greatly outwieghs the privacy of the individual student. The Supreme Court has ruled on this time and again. NO SEARCH WARRANT IS NEEDED!! PROBABLE CAUSE IS NOT EVEN NEEDED!! They could just do random searches if they felt like it… A student cannot be forced to take a drug test though. And why should they? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705/120 "2001-01-14T17:31:47Z")
> [@](#): > > A little comment, MONTY. This thread lost brevity long ago. > [@](#): > > Children do not have civil rights, being the charge of their parents. The parents are the legal guardians of the children, not their owners. The chilren still have civil rights. > [@](#): > > They get their rights through their parents, or did until lately. Pray tell, then, where they get these rights now? > [@](#): > > The basic reason was that children are not wise enough to do things like take responsibility for their actions, make good value judgments, or to react with acceptable maturity. That’s why they’re not allowed to consume booze until 21, nor buy smokes, nor be allowed into X movies, nor to drive until a certain age. None of this addresses why it’s acceptable to beat the child into the ground for exercising his Constitutional rights. > [@](#): > > Parents screwed up the school systems by taking away the authority from the educators and suing anyone who attempted to discipline their kids. Others went nuts by over doing it on children’s rights until today, every kid above the age of 7 knows that adults can do nothing to them and just how easy it is to get an adult into major trouble. Being kids, they flaunt this ‘freedom’ and there are rising incidents of kids getting adults in hot water by claiming they were beaten or molested when they were not. Cites, statistics, evidence? > [@](#): > > I agree that parents do not instill proper respect nor discipline in their kids today, who seem to hold little but music stars sacred. “Seem” is the key word here. Please refer to my posting early in this thread about opinion and validity. > [@](#): > > This lack of respect shows up in something as simple as refusing to stand in honor for the pledge of allegiance. How about something as simple as allowing the child to exercise his rights as enumerated in the First Amendment? At least one religion considers it sinful to make any act of obeisance to any government or to any object other than that religion’s deity. Yet, I don’t see the Jehovah’s Witnesses stopping you from standing and reciting the pledge. Pray tell, then, from whom they learned this respect of others? > [@](#): > > Our school systems are a laughing stock because none are allowed to discipline unruly or rebellious kids. This is a false statement. First: not all of the schools in the United States are a laughing stock. Many public schools are quite good, and many are not so hot. Second: if nobody is allowed to discipline schoolchildren, how do you explain the suspensions and expulsions? > [@](#): > > I would guess that in those other nations were their educational system is far superior, teachers are allowed to discipline the kids, parents do not run with the family lawyer to the school each time a teacher grabs their kid by the arm and makes him sit down and they don’t force educators, by threatening funds, to pass kids who do not deserve to be passed. Cites, statistics, evidence? > [@](#): > > Parent pressure the politicians to improve the school results, these worthy people respond by threatening to cut funds to schools with low figures, these schools, unable to discipline kids, respond by forcing teachers to pass kids who do not deserve it. The problem with this scenario is that’s not what’s happening. Schools are able to discipline the children. > [@](#): > > The blame goes right back to the parents, Generalize much? > [@](#): > > who figure that their immature children should not be forced to do anything that they do not want to do, like learn the basics. Read minds much? > [@](#): > > Not showing respect for the Flag is just one sign of something rotten going on, Or it could just simply be that the child is exercising his Constitutional right to obey his religious beliefs. > [@](#): > > for respect for the law with kids is low, respect for adults is low, Are you saying this is true for all children, a majority of children, or are you just posting a WAG? > [@](#): > > respect for the personal rights of others is low Well, with you and TheMoonGazer, respect for the personal rights of others is low. Luckily, in my experience, most people have a high regard for both their rights and the rights of others. > [@](#): > > and they have learned that they can do what they want with virtual immunity. Cites, statistics, evidence? > [@](#): > > Like steal cars and trash them for joyriding. Steal from stores and people. Use drugs. Shoot each other up. They can carry drugs into school and stash them knowing that a warrant will be needed to search them or their lockers. A warrant cannot be obtained without probable cause. Oh, yeah! That pesky Constitution sneaks right back into school! How about the local police come search your child’s room in your house just because? After all, you don’t think they need probable cause. > [@](#): > > They can and do go to school stoned and refuse pee tests that would get them caught Are you familiar with the Fifth Amendment? How about the local police come over to your house this weekend and demand that your children “fill a jar” just because? After all, you think it’s okay for them to provide evidence against themselves when they’ve not been charged with any crime. > [@](#): > > and get them help because a few stand on their rights not to take them and parents back them up, which only contributes to the greater problem which started the pee tests in the first place. Better yet would be a school and parents which teach the child the dangers of the drugs and the many reasons not to do drugs. And, better still, would be a school and parents which are aware of the Constitutional rights of all. > [@](#): > > The school tries to clean up the mess with the kids and parents get in the action and block them. First: Those parents are blocking unconstitutional actions. Second: Some parents think that forced prayer in the schools will cure all the problems you see. What would you say if they decided to pick, say, a decidedly Mormon prayer for all the children to recite immediately after the pledge? I can just see it now: a thousand non-Mormon children in your child’s school reciting “I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet.” > [@](#): > > Your child is not a legal adult. No kidding! A child is a child and an adult is an adult. Glad to see you understand at least that part of the calculus. > [@](#): > > His or her rights come from you only, Nice medieval viewpoint, there. > [@](#): > > aside from the very basics for food, shelter, and freedom from abuse. I consider someone denying my child her rights to be abusing that child. Apparently, I’m in good company judging from some of the postings in this thread. > [@](#): > > If you read the news, you’ll know that health care is not a guaranteed right for your child. Heck, I gleaned that little tidbit from the Constitution. It’s not mentioned there, not even indirectly. > [@](#): > > The law dictates that your child must have a minimum education either in a school for the public or through certified home education. You left out “years.” > [@](#): > > Instead of defending a kids right to refuse to obey the school rules, perhaps you should be teaching him that you are in charge, that rules are there for reasons, that one does not always get the luxury of being able to do everything that one wants. Maybe you should teach him respect for his country. I teach by example. I think it’s better that she understand that I respect my country, and served in its military for over 20 years, at my own will and not because some bully forced me to. > [@](#): > > Either that, or one day the draft might return and he will discover that when his country calls him, he has not the luxury of saying no. Actually, she will always have the “luxury” of saying no. > [@](#): > > Then he will discover what the military does to those refusing to salute or respect the flag or those who stand on their rights. He probably will not survive. This shows you are not familiar with the military. I, on the other hand, served in the military for over 20 years and understand that I still have all those rights guaranteed. Please take some time off and watch an open court-martial soon. You will be amazed to see that the accused does not lack any of his Constitutional rights. > [@](#): > > Rules in the military are to save his life. And this equates to forcing a child to participate in a ritual unwillingly exactly how? > [@](#): > > Rules in school are to guarantee an adequate education. Care to explain how “Separate but Equal” rules guaranteed an adequate education? > [@](#): > > Parents have hobbled the very educators who have to enforce the rules which are to prepare the kids for adult life. Cites, statistics, evidence for this WAG? > [@](#): > > BTW, I stand and say the pledge when I attend PTA and Boy Scout meetings. I have no problems with it. It is an honor to do so. Well, good for you. You are not required to attend the PTA or the Boy Scout meetings. Those are both voluntary associations. The public school, however, is a governmental entity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-school-refusing-to-stand-for-the-pledge-of-allegiance/49705.md?page=7)