# Kids in the Restaurant: THAT was odd. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439 "2005-07-21T08:01:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/41 "2005-07-21T18:39:48Z")
I know it wasn’t over the top. I was being sarcastic. I’m so ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/42 "2005-07-21T18:48:33Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > **Hung Mung** , your OP was not over the top; as someone who doesn’t have kids, you were asking about a behaviour you found odd (I would have found it odd, too). I think what you have run into in the responses in this thread is the “Cult of the Child” mentality North America is currently enduring. Well, “asking about a behavior” might have worked had the OP not also included > [@](#): > > This struck me as a little eccentric and very, very needy. > . . . > I still think it’s weird. The question was fine. And while there may be a “cult of the child” occurring in North America at this time, there is certainly an opposing “cult of the childless” occuring at the same time. I have no use for people who insist that everyone needs to breed, but since there are people who can be somewhat strident in their displeasure regarding children, a “question” that includes declarations of “needy” and “weird” are going to raise some hackles. ---
**Author:** ![Tomcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/43 "2005-07-21T20:08:41Z")
> [@Licentious Ectomorph](#): > > The very fist thing infants learn is how to get what they want by screaming and crying. Surely you don’t think they’re incapable of deliberately manipulating their parents by pitching a fit if they don’t get their way. Granted, the thought process isn’t sophisticated - but they know it works. Certainly by the age of two it’s not a huge mental feat. Actually, this has been pretty much debunked thoroughly by modern child psychologists for children this young. If you think about the thought processes that go into manipulation, they are pretty complex. Lets break down the thought process “I want X, and I know that last time I did Y, I got X. So if I do X now, then I will get Y again.” You have to have a concept of “I”, of “want” of specific objects and/or actions (“X” & “Y”), then you have a memory dredging with “know” and “last time” and “got” implies receiving and satisfaction derived previously. Then the whole train of thought put together to do this again and into the future… Pretty complicated stuff, ne? Who taught them that? HOW did they learn that? Kids don’t manipulate at that age, and this is the biggest mistake parents can make by treating them as if they are being manipulative. So the kid is crying- that could mean any one of 100 things…And you as the parent might not know what it is. Are they hungry? Do they want the red ball? Do they have to fart? Do they just want to cry? What? And if you stand there over a crying baby and go “Hah! I will not let you manipulate me!” then the kid that just wants to be held so they can poop easier learns what? Answer that. What do they learn? You think doing that makes them grow up to be strong willed, honest, open, caring, ethical, etc? Deny them and they are going to be better than if I indulge them!..That’s just so wrong. Kids will learn things in, well, baby-steps. The child that needs to be held for a long time learns comfort in that. And then they learn that if mom goes to the bathroom it doesn’t mean she is leaving them forever (it took our daughter until age 2 to not cry when mommy went to the bathroom) and she comes back and comforts the child. And then mommy leaves for 5 minutes…and then 10…and everytime she came back! And life is good! The child learns slowly that they can spread their wings further and further. It is then the parents role to guide their meanderings and set examples for what is and isn’t acceptable…but it is slow and take syears to do properly. Our daughter was VERY ‘needy’ in the beginning…and now she is sometimes TOO independant at age 3. She goes through waves, some days she leeches and some days she walks off in a crowd! (BAD thing! I don’t know how to handle that one…Standing in line for an ice cream at the zoo and she runs off without looking back! Hmmm…). Because we (and others around her) were there to comfort her when she was growing she is now more willing to do things on her own. But when daddy comes home from work, or sometimes on the bus going to school, or even in a restaurant - daddy’s lap is the safest place in the world and listening to his heart beat just makes her happy. If you really care to learn some basically sound info on kids, how their brains work and develop, how to help them grow, etc. I recommend [Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684838656/qid=1121975866/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/002-1836527-2240829?v=glance&s=books). -Tcat ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/44 "2005-07-21T20:16:47Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Well, “asking about a behavior” might have worked had the OP not also includedThe question was fine. And while there may be a “cult of the child” occurring in North America at this time, there is certainly an opposing “cult of the childless” occuring at the same time. [quote] True enough. Of course, the childless by choice are outnumbered approximately five to one. > [@](#): > > I have no use for people who insist that everyone needs to breed, but since there are people who can be somewhat strident in their displeasure regarding children, a “question” that includes declarations of “needy” and “weird” are going to raise some hackles. There’s often a lot of defensiveness encountered whenever anyone criticizes children or child-rearing. It seemed a little out of proportion for the level of “offense” in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/45 "2005-07-21T20:21:22Z")
Ah, for cryin’ in the sink. If a mod wanted to clean that mess of coding up, it would be very appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/46 "2005-07-21T20:33:49Z")
> [@Tomcat](#): > > If you think about the thought processes that go into manipulation, they are pretty complex. Lets break down the thought process “I want X, and I know that last time I did Y, I got X. So if I do X now, then I will get Y again.” > > t It must be complicated if even you can’t get it right. 😛 :: d&r :: ---
**Author:** ![yellowval](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/919ad9/32.png) [@yellowval](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowval)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/47 "2005-07-21T21:01:08Z")
> [@MissGypsy](#): > > I don’t quite get the part about “Apparently not having anything better to do, mommy holds the baby almost constantly.” What is better to do than cuddling, loving and raising a child? When one has a newborn, I can’t imagine what is “better to do” than nurturing that baby. Dishes? Laundry? Running for political office? They aren’t babies forever, and I would think that most parents would cherish that time. She could pay some attention to her son, I guess. He’s only 5. I think he probably still needs a little cuddling, loving, and raising too, even though there is a new baby. I also think it might be nice if the baby’s daddy got to hold and play with her once in a while, don’t you? After all, mom is not raising this baby alone. Nurturing from a father to a child is important, too. But daddy can’t even sleep in his own bed anymore, because mommy needs to sleep with the baby alone. I won’t even get into the part about her refusing to get a job, even though they can’t afford for her not to have one. That started way before the baby was born anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/48 "2005-07-21T21:22:27Z")
> [@Hung Mung](#): > > Sigh. Here we go. > I didn’t complain about the kids. They behaved themselves fine. They were fine before they got put into their parents lap. It’s not about the kids. > > It struck me as odd that Mom and Dad would eat with two squirming (and yes, they sqirmed…quite a lot) kids in their laps. I’ve never seen anyone do this. I’ve seen this sort of thing before. As has been said in this very thread (woo poetry), the parents were probably heading off any potential problems. If they hadn’t kept the kids on their laps, this would likely have been a pit thread about lousy parents and their screaming children. Again, there is very little weird or creepy or needy about this. As a parent, this sounds very sensible. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/49 "2005-07-21T21:49:36Z")
I’m not going to get into whether or not having small children in one’s laps at a restaurant is “weird” or not; that is surely in the eye of the beholder. Personally (as someone with three children, ages 6, 4 and 1) I don’t find it odd at all, though doing it for an entire meal does seem a bit out of what I would expect. What I find more interesting are the comments from the people (presumably childless) who feel strongly about how the parents should be instructing the children to behave essentially as adults at the age of 2… Throwing around such phrases as “The Cult of the Child”, implying that “today’s parents” somehow coddle and spoil children as a matter of popular culture. Certainly there are spoiled children in the world, though I would venture to say no fewer and no more than there were 20 years ago. But the family under discussion in the OP had two children **aged 2 and under**. Do not assume that what the parents let such young children “get away with” at this age will carry over to when the children get older. Think of your own childhoon. Do you even _remember_ being two, or how your parents treated you at that age? And yet you must remember things you were allowed leeway for when you were, say, 6 years old versus when you were 10. How much more leeway should be allowed a child who has only just started talking and can’t even control his/her bowel movements yet… And that’s the _older_ child of the two? Sheesh! ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/50 "2005-07-21T21:50:53Z")
> [@yellowval](#): > > I would have thought that it was impossible to spoil an infant too, until a friend of ours and his wife had a baby in December. Apparently not having anything better to do, mommy holds the baby almost constantly. On one occasion, another friend of mine was holding the baby and laid her down on a blanket on the floor so she could play and kick. The baby made a noise, so mommy had to pick her up. Now, if anyone—including the baby’s father and grandparents—tries to hold her and her mother is in the room, she screams bloody murder. I hate to see what’s going to happen when she gets older. According to the people who were around and remember, I was that infant. Exactly three people were allowed to touch me (mom, dad, and my maternal grandmother… my father’s mother, not on your life.) or I would scream as though the world was ending. And they had to hold me _all the time_; everywhere they went, everything they did, someone had to be picking me up and holding me or else. And then, one day, I stopped. The same people claim not to have done anything to stop or change the behavior, I just finished that phase and moved on to become more normal, and was actually quite non-clingy and demanding (compared to other kids my age) after that. Apparently, I went through it all before I hit 12-months. Of course, the kid might end up getting spoiled rotten. You never can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/51 "2005-07-22T00:41:27Z")
Years ago, I ready a study (and I’ll dig up a cite if I can), about how babies that are held and cuddled frequently make much better progress than those who are just left in their cribs to cry it out, in between diapering, bathing, and feeding. They were happier, healthier, and much more responsive, and IIRC, their growth was better too. Anyone else remember this? ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/52 "2005-07-22T01:12:11Z")
Thank you, Harborwolf, for two calm and reasonable responses. I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/53 "2005-07-22T01:48:30Z")
> [@Hung Mung](#): > > Thank you, Harborwolf, for two calm and reasonable responses. I appreciate it. No problem. Your op didn’t strike me as particularly hostile; just moderately perplexed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/54 "2005-07-22T02:44:41Z")
Mid-30’s father, until-recently-childless, checking in. A couple of years ago, I probably would’ve felt the same way the OP did. Now, with an 18-month old of my own, that family sounds very familiar. If there’s a control issue going on with the two-year-old, well, you pick your battles. For the sake of the evening, the family probably took preventive measures. The battle can wait for McDonalds. It’s also entirely possible that the parents were just holding their kids. It’s a nice bonding time, eating dinner with your kid in your lap. Now, if this continues in to the teen years… ---
**Author:** ![inkleberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@inkleberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inkleberry)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/55 "2005-07-22T03:07:36Z")
Holding the kids in their lap may be the very reason why they weren’t fussy and full of evil. It’s easier to control & calm them that way. ---
**Author:** ![MissGypsy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8491ac/32.png) [@MissGypsy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissGypsy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/56 "2005-07-22T03:26:23Z")
> [@yellowval](#): > > She could pay some attention to her son, I guess. He’s only 5. I think he probably still needs a little cuddling, loving, and raising too, even though there is a new baby. I also think it might be nice if the baby’s daddy got to hold and play with her once in a while, don’t you? After all, mom is not raising this baby alone. Nurturing from a father to a child is important, too. But daddy can’t even sleep in his own bed anymore, because mommy needs to sleep with the baby alone. I won’t even get into the part about her refusing to get a job, even though they can’t afford for her not to have one. That started way before the baby was born anyway. Then you left out some pertinent points in your post. If the father chooses to sleep elsewhere and the mother agrees, why is it any of your concern? Co-sleeping is a valid choice, although it’s not what I chose for my kids. The sleeping arrangements of adult couples is none of my business. And why in the world are you so involved in this family’s finances that you can determine that she refused to get a job, “even though they can’t afford for her not to have one”? ---
**Author:** ![EllaBean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a5b964/32.png) [@EllaBean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllaBean)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/57 "2005-07-22T04:06:12Z")
when we go out to eat, my baby sister almost always sits on my lap. There are several reasons for this. - She eats some solid food, but not enough to get her her own meal. When she sits on my lap, she can easily share from my plate. - Holding her keeps her much quieter than letting her chill in a bunny seat or high chair. Picking her up and putting her on my lap before she fusses shows her that I’m holding her because I want to hold her, not because she demanded it. - It’s easier to keep tabs on her when she’s close to me. If she’s sitting on my lap, even if my attention isn’t 100% focused on her, I’ll notice right away if she’s got ahold of something that could be dangerous or make a mess (we generally try to keep things like that away from her anyway, but in the course of the meal, things get moved around.) - If someone’s holding her, people are less likely to touch her. She’s okay when she’s handed off to a stranger, but she doesn’t like it when someone she doesn’t know just comes up and touches her or picks her up. We don’t like it either. She’s also unnaturally cute, even for a baby, and does that thing where she makes faces and smiles and babbles at strangers in public places, so people approach her all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/58 "2005-07-22T04:23:08Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > \What I find more interesting are the comments from the people (presumably childless) who feel strongly about how the parents should be instructing the children to behave essentially as adults at the age of 2… Throwing around such phrases as “The Cult of the Child”, implying that “today’s parents” somehow coddle and spoil children as a matter of popular culture. > \ My Cult of the Child comment was directed at the level of anger directed at the OP for daring to suggest there was something wrong with someone’s parenting skills, not at the children in question. And for the record, I _do_ believe that some of today’s parents coddle and spoil children as a matter of popular culture. ---
**Author:** ![initech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/439d5e/32.png) [@initech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/initech)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/59 "2005-07-22T06:14:32Z")
> [@featherlou](#): > > I _do_ believe that some of today’s parents coddle and spoil children as a matter of popular culture. Can you give some examples of this? Not looking to start an argument–I’m genuinely curious. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439/60 "2005-07-22T08:30:21Z")
> [@Licentious Ectomorph](#): > > Grownups are not entitled to have so much as a meal without paying attention to them. You’re suggesting that parents should take their kids out to eat and pay no attention to them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-in-the-restaurant-that-was-odd/313439.md?page=4)