# Kids that need micromanaging - how can this be avoided? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 6, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689 "2008-10-06T15:56:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/21 "2008-10-07T18:18:24Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > My nine-year old seems to need “micromanaging”. For example, in the morning, when left to her own devices, she will not brush her teeth, nor clean up her dish after breakfast, nor do her bed, and she will waste time reading a book or doing something else, and be ready for school very late. So late that she ends up late for school. > > I assume not all kids are like this, although I suspect quite a few are. > > What can we do so that she learns to be responsible and not need to be told “brush your teeth”, “get dressed”, in order to get ready for school on time in the morning? > > Can anything be done? Is this just typical behavior for a nine-year-old? Should we worry about it? Should we not worry about it? At age 9, she’s more than old enough to understand the concept that actions have consequences. Sit down with her and explain very clearly - use a checklist if necessary - that this, this, and this are what she needs to do to be ready to leave the house at 0745 (or whatever time you leave to take her to school). Starting the next day and every day after that, you take her _as is_ at 0745. If she’s in her underwear, you take her in her underwear and she can finish dressing in the car. If she didn’t brush her hair or teeth, too bad. Don’t relent, don’t back down in any way. It won’t take more than a week or so before she straightens up. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/22 "2008-10-09T20:48:43Z")
> [@Foxy40](#): > > Not to hijack Polerius thread but I tried this advice this morning and it worked very well. I told her she could turn the TV back on when she was completely ready for school. When I came out of my room dressed for work she sat completely ready with the tv back on waiting for me! > > Wow, what a concept. New routine at Foxy’s house. 😃 Yay! I contributed something that worked! Pretty good for a non-parent!😉 ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/23 "2008-10-09T21:05:59Z")
> [@TroubleAgain](#): > > Yay! I contributed something that worked! Pretty good for a non-parent!😉 Don’t worry, all of us were GREAT PARENTS BEFORE WE HAD KIDS, too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Strange\_Machine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@Strange\_Machine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strange_Machine)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/24 "2008-10-10T15:47:37Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Thanks for all the replies. > > 1. She could avoid things like brushing her teeth and declare herself “ready to go to school” on-time. How should this be addressed? There is no immediate built-in punishment for not brushing your teeth (long-term, there are consequences, but not on that day) As far as teeth go, my orthodontist had tons of humongous poster-sized photos of nasty teeth as a result of not brushing. Scared the jeepers out of me. Maybe a field trip is in order. A checklist could be tied directly into an allowance or other reward system with tangible results. 80% tasks done results in 80% of agreed upon weekly allowance. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/25 "2008-10-10T16:18:06Z")
I don’t have kids, but I teach, and so spend a lot of time with them. One thing that is very clear to me is just how different kids are about this sort of thing, and it doesn’t seem to be related to intelligence or other types of maturity at all. It’s a self-awareness thing that seems to develop at its own rate, and where as some kids can get there shit together and take care of things at 5, others don’t reach the point where they can do it inherently until they are 18. Because of this, kids that are bad at self-regulating time really need a system to help compensate for something that is much harder for them than it looks from the outside. For many kids, it isn’t enough to just give them an incentive to “try harder” because they don’t even know how to try. You have to help them develop a system of external cues (check lists, alarms, whatever) but don’t try to wean them off the system as the next logical step. And most especially, don’t make them feel like they shouldn’t need the system just because many other kids don’t. This is a true temperment difference between kids, not just laziness. ---
**Author:** ![schnuckiputzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@schnuckiputzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schnuckiputzi)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/26 "2008-10-10T17:18:53Z")
Check lists are great. I have taught school for 20 years, and gotten 3 kids of my own to teenagerhood. In the morning, I check to see that they are up (alarms do malfunction occasionally) and that’s it. When they were small they had charts with their morning chores listed that they could put stickers on when they were accomplished, but now it’s pure habit. I do yell out a countdown when we’re close to leaving (Ten minutes! etc.). They were never allowed to watch TV in the mornings, but I have been known to crank up the radio to a lively station to get the blood flowing. Sing-alongs have been also known to happen. Of course, since they became teenagers, they would rather die than sing along with me.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![phall0106](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phall0106/32/5934_2.png) [@phall0106](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phall0106)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/27 "2008-10-10T17:26:22Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Most kids find that when they don’t do stuff, their folks get into a tizzy, yell at them a little, and then bend over backwards to make things all better so that they’re not perceived by teachers and other parents as bad parents. This encourages micromanaging or “helicopter parenting”. Except for a little temporary yelling or nagging, there’s no real consequence or learning opportunity for the kid, because the parents have made it their problem. > > I found the best thing to do is to back off. Don’t make it your problem. Talk with the teacher, explain your new parenting strategy, and let your daughter be tardy and take the hit. If her grades can take the hit, then perhaps the teacher needs to find a consequence with real teeth, like making her stay after class the same number of minutes helping out, or staying in that long at recess time to “pay back the class” for the minutes she stole in the morning. But the bottom line is that her school performance isn’t about _you_. > > This isn’t to say she’s totally on her own. But she needs to come up with a solution to her tardiness. And remember, it’s always fair game to say, “Dad, I don’t know how to solve this, will you help me?” THEN you can suggest charts and stickers and alarm clocks and whatnot, and she can try what she thinks will work. But until she’s accepted that this is her problem, and she’s got the power to fix it, you’re not going to win. It’s going to keep being your problem, and she’ll just keep assuming that you’re going to clean up her mess - literally and figuratively. > > Teeth brushing, IME, is just a never ending nag fest. It’s gotta be done, no one wants to do it, and you’ve got to tell the kid explicitly, twice a day, “go brush your teeth now.” My son is 15. I’ll let you know when he starts brushing his teeth on his own. PERHAPS, at 9, a toothbrush or toothpaste that she picks out will make it more appealing, but probably not for long. We did have a bit of success requiring him to pay for his own fillings (a result, the dentist testified, of his not brushing well or frequently enough), but ideally you want to prevent needing those fillings in the first place. > > For the dishes and household chores issue, I found rewording things to be helpful. Sounds silly, but, “We’ll watch television after your room is clean,” goes over better than “You may not watch television until you clean your room!” The first is positive and empowering - it says what you CAN do, the second focuses on what you CAN’T do. It’s stifling, and authoritarian. Think about how you feel at work when your boss says, “If we meet our sales goals for the third quarter, I’ll pop for a pizza party!” vs. “There will be no more company sponsored events until sales goals are met.” The first makes you think, “OK, cool, we can do that!” The second makes you think, “Fuck you.” > > For these and other parenting theories and techniques that I stole, check out the books in the [Parenting With Love and Logic](http://www.loveandlogic.com/) series. I cannot agree more with this. Hallboy is screwing up his freshman year of highschool and internally it’s KILLING ME. I want to nag, punish, scream, etc. ANYTHING to get his to study before tests (that’s what causing him to fail), but guess what? They are his grades and getting crappy grades have consequences for him, and it was quite a shock to to him to get his first progress report. Guess what though–he went to his teachers to find out what he can do to raise his grades, how he can study better and to get moved to the front of the class. It took everything I had in me to look at the F on his progress report and say, “Wow, dude, an F. That sucks. Let’s hope it gets better before the report card comes out” and that was all. He knew he’d screwed up, and knew there were consequences for it, but he also took responsibility to take care of it. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/28 "2008-10-10T23:52:55Z")
> [@phall0106](#): > > I cannot agree more with this. Hallboy is screwing up his freshman year of highschool and internally it’s KILLING ME. I want to nag, punish, scream, etc. ANYTHING to get his to study before tests (that’s what causing him to fail), but guess what? They are his grades and getting crappy grades have consequences for him, and it was quite a shock to to him to get his first progress report. Guess what though–he went to his teachers to find out what he can do to raise his grades, how he can study better and to get moved to the front of the class. > > It took everything I had in me to look at the F on his progress report and say, “Wow, dude, an F. That sucks. Let’s hope it gets better before the report card comes out” and that was all. He knew he’d screwed up, and knew there were consequences for it, but he also took responsibility to take care of it. To play devil’s advocate a bit, though, (these are general remarks, it sounds like your son is fine) sometimes you do have to show kids how to try harder. As a teacher, I’ve literally had to sit down with kids and show them how to use flash cards (look at one side. Try to remember the definition of the word. Flip it over to see if you were correct . . . ). It’s a really fine line, and while I have seen many kids hurt by over-coddling, I’ve also seen kids floundering because they were allowed to sink or swim without any sort of plan. They try, they really do, but they don’t have the perspective to even see what they are doing wrong–it’s like the kid who gets 25 math problems right and 5 wrong can probably go back and figure out what went wrong with the 5. But the kid that gets 25 wrong and 5 right is making so many different errors all at once that they can’t break it down into fixable problems. When it looks absolutely hopeless, kids often give up and live with the consequences–it’s amazing what you can get used to when you feel like you have no choice. So the parent sees a kid that is putting up with perpetual grounding or whatever because they are lazy and willful, but the kid is living in a world where their parents are giving them an impossible task as a pretext for taking away all their joy. Both sides grow increasingly bitter, and once things reach this stage it is really hard to fix–that bitterness gets in the way of offering constructive advice. Obviously, this is always a balancing act, and every kid is different–some kids, you can tell them “you can always ask me for help” and they will ask when they need it. But others just aren’t wired that way–it isn’t pride, or laziness, it’s just when they wrestle with a problem, it doesn’t occur to them to go looking for help. For example, kids also have very different tolerances for frustration. Some–especially when hormones are rising, as all these emotions are linked–get tremendously frustrated at the merest hint of struggle. It’s hard, as an adult, to take that frustration seriously: “You’ve tried working this problem for five minutes, calm down”, but they already know their frustration is irrational, being reminded that they are crazy doesn’t help them. That kind of frustration can make any consequence seem better than dealing with the source of the frustration, so they give up. You have to teach a kid like that “when you feel that way, go walk around the house three times, or play video games for fifteen minutes, because even though it doesn’t feel like it at the time, that weird rage will pass, and then you can start again”. That seems ridiculously obvious to anyone over 21, but I swear it’s something teenagers often need to be taught. I guess what I am saying is that while “sink or swim” is important, when they start to seriously sink, more intervention is needed. That doesn’t mean you get in there and hold them up, but it does mean you give them some swimming lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/29 "2008-10-11T10:52:14Z")
> [@ButterflyandBumblebee](#): > > Does having any kind of chart or check-list help? My 6 year old finds it very useful to have a chart of things to do, so that she knows what things she needs to get done. Of course that doesn’t always help with getting her from one task to the next, without getting distracted in between… We have a chart for our seven year old of things he is expected to do by himself: eat breakfast, get dressed, brush teeth, be out of the bath and dressed, be at the table for dinner…there are about 8 items on the chart. Nothing onerous, but stuff we know he’s old enough to do himself. If there are two crosses on the chart at the end of the day, he knows he gets privileges - usually television - revoked. There’s no fuss, no shouting, just “You were expected to to this, you didn’t, so no TV tonight.” If you impose consequences for their behaviour, kids learn pretty quickly that it’s worth more to them to brush their teeth than forfeit TV. On the other hand, if you yell endlessly but don’t impose consequences, they’ll just tune it out, you’ll get more aggravated, and the situation escalates. ---
**Author:** ![Mame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Mame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mame)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/30 "2008-10-11T11:43:09Z")
Just wanted to say, **Manda JO** , that you make an awful lot of sense. By and large we have no trouble with our kid, but she is getting ready to pubate, and I guess we will have trouble ahead. I think I will bookmark your comments.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/31 "2008-10-11T12:22:19Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I don’t have kids, but I teach, and so spend a lot of time with them. One thing that is very clear to me is just how different kids are about this sort of thing, and it doesn’t seem to be related to intelligence or other types of maturity at all. It’s a self-awareness thing that seems to develop at its own rate, and where as some kids can get there shit together and take care of things at 5, others don’t reach the point where they can do it inherently until they are 18. I didn’t get my shit together until I was 20 or so. It took living with roommates and my own maturity to get me to have a routine. Parents, don’t fret. It will come. I still notice (at 29) that I surprise myself with my ability to think ahead. Simple stuff (I now think “put the glass of water down before you try to pick up the trash you just dropped, or you’ll spill it” instead of spilling it and getting mad at myself for not thinking ahead) ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/32 "2008-10-11T19:17:23Z")
[QUOTE=Strange Machine] As far as teeth go, my orthodontist had tons of humongous poster-sized photos of nasty teeth as a result of not brushing. Scared the jeepers out of me. Maybe a field trip is in order. [/QUOTE] My dad has false teeth. The kind that can be removed. I _never_ needed reminding to brush. Then again, if I skip brushing, I spit blood the next morning, so my body kinda does the nagging for me. I don’t have kids, but I would seriously have hated my parents if they had dragged me to school in pajamas, underwear or any other sort of dissaray. Humiliating a child in front of children that child will have to see every day for years is not parenting, it is evil. Do you really think those children will ever stop remebering that? How will your child feel when, at fifteen, she is still “that kid who came to school in her undies”? Playground harrassment is usually bad enough for most children - adults and parents do not have to help. You (generic you) might as well rename your kid “Heraclitus Crotchfruit” and be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/33 "2008-10-11T21:04:36Z")
> [@Septima](#): > > My dad has false teeth. The kind that can be removed. I _never_ needed reminding to brush. > > Then again, if I skip brushing, I spit blood the next morning, so my body kinda does the nagging for me. > > I don’t have kids, but I would seriously have hated my parents if they had dragged me to school in pajamas, underwear or any other sort of dissaray. > > Humiliating a child in front of children that child will have to see every day for years is not parenting, it is evil. Do you really think those children will ever stop remebering that? How will your child feel when, at fifteen, she is still “that kid who came to school in her undies”? Playground harrassment is usually bad enough for most children - adults and parents do not have to help. You (generic you) might as well rename your kid “Heraclitus Crotchfruit” and be done with it. No one said anything about sending a kid to school in her undies. She would get put in the car at home in her undies and, assumably, have enough time to get her clothes on before she got to school. That’s how I read that post. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/34 "2008-10-12T01:11:31Z")
Well, Dumbass McNiece went to school in her pajamas. My mom warned her for a whole week, she didn’t listen, she went to school in her jammies. I think my mom did bring her some clothes about an hour later or so, but the child was old enough to understand consequences. If the other kids make fun of her it ain’t for that, trust me. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689/35 "2008-10-12T02:30:35Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Don’t worry, all of us were GREAT PARENTS BEFORE WE HAD KIDS, too. 😃 Heh. I’m not going to BE a parent.🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kids-that-need-micromanaging-how-can-this-be-avoided/466689.md?page=1)