Your cite says
So they don’t necessarily stop mating.
Regards,
Shodan
There’s an active tnr program in my area. The females are spayed, reducing the overall fertility rate of the feral cats. Cats can live in colonies, but many cats are loners. My understanding is that this depends on the early socialization of the cat. Loner cats are highly territorial, and the carrying capacity if an area is for lower than what the total available calories would predict, due to dominant cats keeping others out of their territory.
My understanding is that the tnr program has been largely effective both at keeping down the total number of strays and at improving their health. (Trapped cats get basic vaccinations.)
We don’t have an enormous surplus of feral cats, at any rate. So it seems the existing programs are good enough.
And while I don’t have a problem killing animals for various reasons, I think it is bizarre to argue that it is crueler to return an animal to the wild than to kill it. Most sick people do not seek death. Many feral cats are reasonably healthy. (Most of our feral cats are reasonably healthy.) Yes, they may get eaten by something else in a year or two, but in the meantime, they get to live.
You are correct. The paper I was thinking of vasectomized a few males in a large feral colony then attempted to euthanize the remaining males. They then followed the colony over time. Sorry.
Now that’s smart. Dramatically increasing the odds of a vasectomized male becoming the dominant one and decreasing the population.
puzzlegal “Your understanding” is well and good but often what people “understand” is what has been messaged by particular interest groups and not what the actual facts are.
There are by most estimates (and they are just estimates) roughly as many feral cats in the United States as there are ones kept as pets. It is an enormous supply and a significant disruption to local ecologies.
Would you be okay with roving packs of feral dogs in your community, even if you rarely saw them yourself?
How do you know your feral cats are healthy? Does your TNR program also monitor the health of the colony and provide ongoing vetting? If so, then I can accept your statement.
But in my experience working in a rescue group for dogs, street animals are anything BUT healthy. It starts with fleas and ticks, which weakens the animal’s immune system. They accumulate more and more fleas and ticks. We’ve rescued dogs off the street with their ears stuffed full of ticks, for a gross example of what can happen. Heartworm is a quicker but perhaps more painful death, and many street dogs get those too.
And then you add in the contagions like feline leukemia and aids for cats, and distemper for dogs and no those aren’t healthy animals. And we don’t even need to talk about rabies.
What we’ve seen in our rescue is that the parasites weaken the animal more and more, and the weaker the animal gets, the more diseases it picks up. It dies a nasty death and spreads it’s contagion in the meantime. This is why the practice of allowing street animal populations to grow until you have to go and shoot them all (like the Romanian dog cull that was in the news a couple years ago) is such a terrible practice.
They re-capture the animals annually and give them vaccine boosters. Does that count? I assume they put down any that are debilitated at that time, although I don’t know that for a fact.
They are obviously not as healthy as house cats, but I doubt any of them wishes to die.
It’s only a cat program, not dogs. And they are immunized for rabies.
What part of the country are you in? I am in the Northeast. We have no feral dogs. Our local shelters import stray dogs from other regions to supply pets for people who want to adopt mutts.
We have a moderate number of stray cats. My vet is involved in the local TNR program, and I am inclined to trust him over some article that cites PETA. But I note that your article admits there have been TNR successes. The local programs distinguish between abandoned pets and truly feral cats, because most of the abandoned pets are adoptable. (As are some of the ferals, though a “barn cat” program.)
I used to foster kittens for a local shelter. Typically, they would give me a pregnant cat. She was always a tame cat, who liked human company. We would care for the queen and her kittens, and socialize the kittens so they could be good pets. When I started fostering, I returned the animals when the kittens were 2 months old, but they were adopted so reliably that the shelter changed the age to 3 months, to give them more time to learn social skills (don’t scratch, use a litter box, etc.) and to gain a little weight to improve their odds of surviving being spayed/neutered. I followed “my” cats. The kittens were usually adopted in a week or two. The queens were all adopted, even the crazy one, usually in a month or two.
No doubt there are parts of the country with a larger over-supply of cat, and different methods may be appropriate there, including killing excess cats. This is no doubt good for the local people, song birds, and pet cats. I don’t believe it benefits many of the animals that are killed, however.
We stand now at 8 cats. By the pound, we have more dog. 109 pounds last but he is up a bit.
Of the 8 cats our longest caring for was from a landlord who was getting a divorce, for the daughter who just had to have her. ( white, blue eyed and 3 braincells, all crazy. MissKitty, not the daughter… pretty much and we still have her as the daughter never like her much.)
My best cat who likes me & is ‘mine’ is a bully and fearless, all black, male 'Demon," a feral I trapped Was calm enough that we decided to try to re-domesticate him. After about a month, he stopped attacking. 10 years later, he is still my favorite & he know and abuses that…
Devil, black, male, strike like a snake, rescued from under a public walkway near death from lack of water & food, had a broken/dislocated back & could not use his hind feet. He also is mine.Many months again helping him defend himself from the rest of the cats and getting him settled. I am the only one who can move a hand towards his face today, after 5-6 years of work. Anyone else approaching from the front get 2 nasty holes in their body. Slow and from the side he is cool with.
Tripper is a walk up. We came home, he was sitting in the driveway and demanded food. His name is his game. Male, cleanest cat I ever saw, great jumper & bird catcher & would sit next to me & eat jerky until the end of times. Thinks he is a people.
PD ( PurrDragon ) mail, oldest male, found in the street by a friend when he barely had his eyes open. Noisy, whinny love bug that shakes walls when he purrs.
Gizmo, male with part Siamese maybe, attitude X 42, our newest, can’t seen to get him integrated with the others. PITA
Mama’s pet is MissyFace, not writing a book so just note, tude, humming birds are heavier, can float & fly and whine and cry for Mama. Suffered horrible injuries and is a real mess. Most loved critter on the place.
Last but no least, Squeaker, woods kitty momma cat thast checked us out for 3 days before bringing her 4 kittens to us. Over time, gave two away, owl got my favorite in the first week and Bandit. Beaustful layede back cat that got along with everybody, was just a joy. He died in an accident. A real bad day.
Put down many feral cats, dogs, raccoons, possums skunks and relocated many more. Their tude when caught determined their fate. No good shelters in that place.
On BC female dog from a Wall*Mart parking lot that the dogcatcher got, we called him, we went back and got her and my sister from Iowa had lost a good dog so her & husband drove down and took he home where she lived out he time in a great place.
I would like to save one & all but I can’t so I am as kind and quick as I can be. Try for the best and handle the worst myself.
Got a big cat sanctuary about an hour from here and now they even have a bear.
One on one, I’ll help the critter 80% of the time over a people.
YMMV
Girls
We stand now at 8 cats. By the pound, we have more dog. 109 pounds last but he is up a bit.
Of the 8 cats our longest caring for was from a landlord who was getting a divorce, for our daughter who just had to have her. ( white, blue eyed and 3 braincells, all crazy. MissKitty, not the daughter… pretty much and we still have her as the daughter never like her much.)
My best cat who likes me & is ‘mine’ is a bully and fearless, all black, male. 'Demon," a feral I trapped Was calm enough that we decided to try to re-domesticate him. After about a month, he stopped attacking. 10 years later, he is still my favorite & he knows and abuses that…
Devil, black, male, strike like a snake, rescued from under a public walkway near death from lack of water & food, had a broken/dislocated back & could not use his hind feet. He also is mine.Many months again helping him defend himself from the rest of the cats and getting him settled. Healthy now & I am the only one who can move a hand towards his face today, after 5-6 years of work. Anyone else approaching from the front gets 2 nasty holes in their body. Slow and from the side he is cool with.
Tripper is a walk up. We came home, he was sitting in the driveway and demanded food. His name is his game. Male, cleanest cat I ever saw, great jumper & bird catcher & would sit next to me & eat jerky until the end of times. Thinks he is a people.
PD ( PurrDragon ) mail, oldest male, found in the street by a friend when he barely had his eyes open. Noisy, whinny love bug that shakes walls when he purrs.
Gizmo, walk-up male with part Siamese maybe, attitude X 42, our newest, can’t seen to get him integrated with the others. PITA
Mama’s pet is MissyFace, not writing a book so just note, tude, humming birds are heavier, can float & fly and whine and cry for Mama. Suffered horrible injuries and is a real mess. Most loved critter on the place.
Last but not least, Squeaker, woods kitty momma cat that checked us out for 3 days before bringing her 4 kittens to us. Over time, we gave two away, owl got my favorite in the first week and Bandit. Beautiful cat that got along with everybody, was just a joy. He died in an accident. A real bad day.
Put down many feral cats, dogs, raccoons, possums skunks and relocated many more. Their tude when caught determined their fate. No good shelters in around that place.
On BC female dog from a Wall*Mart parking lot that the dogcatcher got, we called him, we went back and got her and my sister from Iowa had lost a good dog so her & husband drove down and took her home where she lived out her time in a great place.
I would like to save one & all but I can’t so I am as kind and quick as I can be. Try for the best and handle the worst myself.
Got a big cat sanctuary about an hour from here and now, they even have a bear.
One on one, I’ll help the critter 80% of the time over a people.
YMMV
Many (most?) ferals are not friendly to humans. They are afraid, will run, and if cornered, they will fight. You will lose skin and blood if not protected.
Where did you get that shit?
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Male cats breed constantly, not in heat cycles. They breed repeatedly with any receptive female.
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Female cats go into estrus, they are induced ovulators. However, it takes more than one hump to ovulate. One link I read (when researching the barbed penis) said it was a minimum of four times. They almost always have more than one father to their litter.
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Males do not have exclusive territory. They try, but other males want it for themselves. Ergo, catfights.
Well, cat mating has a decidedly odd characteristic that looks like rape. Males pin females, often using their teeth. Cat penises are barbed. In case you don’t know what it means in this specific, the penis has a couple hundred millimeter-long barbs made of the same material as their claws. Those barbs rake the inside if the cat’s vagina, which is less than pleasant.
Nature overcomes this by making female cats in estrus so horny that they do it again anyway.
I have had a horny female cat (not my pet, someone else’s) try to trick me into humping her, by getting me petting her, then turning around quickly and thrusting herself at my fingers.
Imagine how horny you’d have to be to get raked inside by a couple hundred cat claws, and still want more.
It takes more than one go - at least four.
Wow!
I’ve had a couple of cats in heat come on to me, but none has gone quite that far. But yeah, cats in heat are REALLY horny.
Then your TNR program isn’t just trap and fix, so that’s very good. Vetting the colony is a nice extra step.
I’m in virginia but the rescue I work for is a North American extension of a Spanish dog rescue. In rural parts of Europe, they don’t pay much mind to street animals except to be annoyed when they make messes and grow populous enough to shoot. In some places they can’t (or won’t) even spend the money for a bullet and execute the animals using much cheaper but less humane ways. However, my point isn’t to vilify Europeans, because there are places in rural America that really aren’t much better.
Yep. That’s also why after submitting apparently happily, the female gets really pissed off and smacks the male off her. Doesn’t seem like good biological design to me.
Well, it does play a role in that ovulation, and it’s theorized it helps remove competitor sperm. I would think a fleshy ring would work better for that - a squeegee kinda thing. But evolution works with what’s there, and claws were there.
You’ll have to excuse my incredulity but very few places, even those with large volunteer bases, can maintain trapping a complete feral population even once, or even manage to capture a significant fraction … claims made to you that they manage to recapture each one annually and give them boosters are simply very likely plain untruths.
Yes, if a complete feral population could be trapped and neutered it would be an effective approach to reduce the size of the feral population over time. Even over 80% would work (see link provided earlier). Trap-vasectomize-hysterectomy-release (TVHR) would work with about 35%.
I never claimed they trapped 100% of the feral cats. I’m sure they don’t. They do try to re-trap the ones they’ve released. Why is that so impossible?
Extremely improbable. You think they come when they are called?
They trap the cats they can trap. The ones they’ve trapped before they vaccinate and release; the ones they have not the neuter and release.
Yes, as I’ve said several times, they try to retrap annually. I’m sure they don’t trap 100% in any attempt. They do trap (and retrap) enough cats to matter.)
We don’t have all that many feral cats around here. Most of the strays are abandoned pets, and we aren’t over-run with those, either.
As for the “They re-capture the animals annually and give them vaccine boosters. Does that count?” bit, well then it only counts if my trying to grow to 6 ft does.
I am happy for you that you do not personally see many feral cats and are not over-run with strays.
A bit skeptical however that what you personally see is necessarily reflective of the magnitude of the issue even in your area. Although again accepted that very high rate TNR can work despite the fact that most such programs are more effective at making those who participate and donate feel good about themselves than actually making any impact on the problem.
Well, I neither donate nor participate. But I used to be active fostering (tame) abandoned cats and their kittens, who were later adopted as pets. So I talked to people who worked with the feral cat population. Also, it’s not all that impossible to re-trap a cat, as most of them hang out in the same territory over time. I certainly got the impression from my vet that he had repeat “customers”. He disliked dealing with the feral cats, by the way, because they don’t like to be handled and are dangerous.
Did you notice my stronger claim about dogs, that we have, for practical purposes, no stay dogs? And that every local shelter that makes dogs available for adoption imports most of their dogs from other places. (Mostly the south-east seaboard and Puerto Rico.)
Well, I live in the Northeast, NY in fact, and I know there are at least two cats that wander around my neighborhood. Are they feral? Are they owned? Who the fuck knows, the owners, if there are any, can’t be arsed to collar them.
They yowl all the time. They attack the local wildlife. I know one got into a dustup last year with a groundhog and got severely messed up. They pee everywhere.
And frankly it’s irresponsible, if they are owned, to let them roam. We live off two 40 mph roads. One of these days they are going to get run over on those roads. I will never understand cat owners, though. Apparently living like a vagabond and getting run down and maybe dying slowly in the street is the “natural way to live” and “We can’t lock poor kitty up, oh no.”
Yes, I did notice.
Wonder why, why there are no roaming packs of feral dogs?
Where are the people advocating for trap neuter and release for starving feral dogs?
The op actually did include them … should feral dogs be neutered and released back into the urban and suburban landscape?
If not why not? Hey they do not reporoduce anywhere near as well.