# Kill 'em first, then sort it out **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 17, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995 "2006-04-17T13:09:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/21 "2006-04-17T16:02:06Z")
For those who haven’t seen it, there’s a related GQ thread: [Finding the right bear](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=367350). (And \*_Priceguy_ was making a Simpsons reference. > [@Police Chief Wiggum](#): > > Book 'em Lou. One count of being a bear. And one count of being an > accessory to being a bear. ---
**Author:** ![the\_only\_bunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@the\_only\_bunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_only_bunny)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/22 "2006-04-17T16:11:10Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Boo fucking hoo. They killed a non-endangered animal that more than likely was responsible for the death and severe injuries of human beings, and as such, exhibited extremely abnormal behaviour (rabies?). :rolleyes: I must agree. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/23 "2006-04-17T16:15:54Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > If a bear is hunting you, you’ll never know it until it’s too late. > > If you see it first, then it probably doesn’t care a thing about you. Russian Bears hunt YOU! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/24 "2006-04-17T16:20:11Z")
> [@the only bunny](#): > > I must agree. [“Monster rabbit” targets vegetable patch](http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-04-08T131821Z_01_L07416618_RTRUKOC_0_US-RABBIT.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13): > [@](#): > > “They call it the monster. It’s very big – it’s nearly the size of a dog,” said Joan Smith, whose son Jeff owns one of the plots under attack. > > “It’s eating everything, all the vegetables,” she told Reuters. “They are trying to shoot it. They go along hoping to catch it but I think it’s too crafty.” > … > "It is absolutely massive. The first time I saw it I thought to myself ‘What the hell is that?’ > > “We have two lads here with guns who are trying to shoot it, but it is very clever.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/25 "2006-04-17T16:39:28Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Pre-emptive killing is unnecessary and wrong, even in these post 9/11 days. It’s a goddam _bear_, you idiot, not Osama bin Laden! ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/26 "2006-04-17T16:40:25Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > When I said “contact” I was referring not only to the bear in the OP but all of the bears which have to be euthanized because they begin feeding on garbage and coming into pouplated areas, making them a danger. It’s more frequent that a bear is killed for that reason than for hurting a person. > > Of course I’m sad about the poor little girl, and I also feel terrible for her family. It’s an all-around tragic, horrible situation. I can imagine the agony of her parents. And, yes, I certainly feel worse about the child dying than I do about the death of the bear. > > That said, I don’t see where it’s wrong to feel sad about the bear, too. The bear was not “evil.” It was just a wild animal which reacted agressively when humans entered its territory. We don’t know why the bear acted as it did, but it was a wild animal in a wild area. You can’t expect the forest to be as safe as a petting zoo. Usually, at least in the state of my birth, NM, bears are relocated from populated areas and only killed when they continue to return. The bear in this case acted extremely abnormally, it was not normal behaviour in the least for a black bear to react in this manner even in a wild area. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/27 "2006-04-17T16:51:38Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > It’s a goddam bear, you idiot, not Osama bin Laden! Osama Bear Laden? WHA!! HAA!! HAA!!! HAA!!! HAA!!! HAA!!! HAA!!! …oh my sides… I already pay a Homer tax. Let the bears pay the bear tax. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/28 "2006-04-17T16:55:16Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Russian Bears hunt YOU! Ok. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/29 "2006-04-17T17:08:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Osama Bear Laden? > > WHA!! HAA!! HAA!!! HAA!!! HAA!!! HAA!!! HAA!!! > > …oh my sides… Ursa bin Laden ?? Wha?? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/30 "2006-04-17T17:21:22Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Boo fucking hoo. They killed a non-endangered animal that more than likely was responsible for the death and severe injuries of human beings, and as such, exhibited extremely abnormal behaviour (rabies?). :rolleyes: Black bear attacks, unusual but far from unprecedented, have not been correlated with rabies according to [this site](http://www.bear.org/Black/Articles/How_Dangerous_are_Black_Bears.html). I’ve never seen any data suggesting that there are such things as “rogue” black bears akin to man-eating tigers, for instance, that must be hunted down and killed lest they repeatedly satisfy their blood-lust with human flesh. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/31 "2006-04-17T17:32:12Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Usually, at least in the state of my birth, NM, bears are relocated from populated areas and only killed when they continue to return. The bear in this case acted extremely abnormally, it was not normal behaviour in the least for a black bear to react in this manner even in a wild area. It depends. It’s not “normal” in the sense that it doesn’t happen every day, but being agressive toward a percieved threat is not bizarre. [Here](http://www.udap.com/safety.htm) is a page on black bear behavior: > [@](#): > > In a Yosemite study, fear was the human behavior most likely to elicit an aggressive response by black bears, followed by neutrality and a close approach. However, human aggression was least likely to stimulate aggression, suggesting that meek behavior may actually increase the chance of bear aggression. In the Great Smoky Mountains, people crowding bears accounted for 40% of aggressive acts, or 64% including situations where crowding was 1 of 2 precipitating causes. In such situations, aggressive responses by black bears included vocalizations, 2 or 4-footed stances accompanied by swatting gestures, charging a person(-s), or snapping, biting, or forcing persons to the ground. > > \ > > Consequently, it is unwise to run from a black bear. In a Yosemite study, running was 1 of 2 human behaviors most likely to precipitate an aggressive response by black bears. Running probably caused people to take their eyes off the bear, thus rendering them vulnerable. In Yellowstone, 61% of hikers injured by either black or grizzly bears had reacted either by running or climbing a tree. In Jasper National Park, Alberta, a black bear chased and killed a 7-year-old girl who attempted to flee to her cabin. (I was wrong about cubs causing agression, by the way. Grizzlies are the bears that do this, not black bears.) Bear attacks are [increasing](http://www.newhouse.com/archive/story1a092800.html) as people encroach more and more into wild areas. > [@](#): > > “Conflict is increasing all over,” said Gary Shelton, who has studied bears for 35 years and written two books considered to be the seminal works on bear aggression. “What’s happening is bear attacks are taking place where they haven’t before, there’s a higher level of fatalities, and there are more deadly attacks by black bears.” ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/32 "2006-04-17T18:19:08Z")
**Lissa** , I’m still of the opinion that you’re missing, or ignoring, the point that a bear that has become comfortable with humans in its territory is often going to eventually start viewing humans as a natural threat that they can combat. From what I recall of the original story, the bear that attacked the woman and her children was in an area that a truly wild bear would have avoided, because of common human spoor. A well-established trail in a well-visited national park is something very different from going into the more remote areas of, say, Yosemite, and actively trying to encroach upon a more remote territory. The Parks Rangers have a saying that I think you have to remember: “[A](http://www.3bears.net/yosemite/beare/) [fed](http://far.redtree.com/bearaware.html) [bear](http://www.yellowstone-bearman.com/B_housesafe.html) [is](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bear) [a](http://www.hsus.org/wildlife/urban_wildlife_our_wild_neighbors/solving_problems_with_your_wild_neighbors/encounters_with_black_bears.html) [dead](http://www.sierraclub.org/grizzly/pdfs/sanitation.PDF) [bear](http://www.nps.gov/kefj/trip_planning/Safety/Bear%20Safety.htm).” As bears, and other large animals, become accustomed to human presences in their territory, they go from the normal response of most wild animals of avoiding human contact, to seeing humans as a food resource: First for garbage, then as competitors, or a food supply in themselves. Given the history of this bear attack, I’m of the opinion that it’s quite reasonable to go for a lethal response to the suspected bear, and then confirming that it is the correct bear. Bears are territorial, and generally solitary animals - Occam’s Razor is going to be with anyone assuming that a bear in the same area as the original attack, is going to be correct bear. And, any _other_ bear in that area is going to be getting too comfortable with humans for my peace of mind, anyways. I’m with **Unregistered Bull** in this case - I don’t think it’s an unreasonable action by the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/33 "2006-04-17T19:46:31Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > As bears, and other large animals, become accustomed to human presences in their territory, they go from the normal response of most wild animals of avoiding human contact, to seeing humans as a food resource: First for garbage, then as competitors, or a food supply in themselves. From the site I linked to previously: _Offensive, predatory attacks have almost always been in remote areas where the bears had little or no previous contact with people. Black bears that raid campgrounds or garbage cans are almost never involved. "_ ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/34 "2006-04-17T19:54:40Z")
**Jackmannii** , thanks for the quote. I’d missed that. I’ll admit a lot of the bear sites I’d linked in my post were talking about brown and grizzly bears, not black bears. I’m afraid that while I accept the link you’ve given, unconditionally, I still don’t see this as an over-reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/35 "2006-04-17T20:06:24Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > **Lissa** , I’m still of the opinion that you’re missing, or ignoring, the point that a bear that has become comfortable with humans in its territory is often going to eventually start viewing humans as a natural threat that they can combat. > > From what I recall of the original story, the bear that attacked the woman and her children was in an area that a truly wild bear would have avoided, because of common human spoor. A well-established trail in a well-visited national park is something very different from going into the more remote areas of, say, Yosemite, and actively trying to encroach upon a more remote territory. There aren’t really many really remote, unvisited-by-humans areas in that park to which a wild bear can retreat to get entirely away from people, so it’s not really a question of avoidance. National parks are getting more and more visitors, and these incidents are going to happen as people spread out through the park. They are “parks”, but they’re not city parks, free of all danger. People need to understand that. > [@](#): > > The Parks Rangers have a saying that I think you have to remember: “A fed bear is a dead bear.” As bears, and other large animals, become accustomed to human presences in their territory, they go from the normal response of most wild animals of avoiding human contact, to seeing humans as a food resource: First for garbage, then as competitors, or a food supply in themselves. Exactly. Likely, that bear had found remains of a cookout at that site before, or had possibly been intentionally fed by park visitors. (I once saw a woman in that same park try to lure a bear down from a tree with a hotdog so she could get a better photo of it.) > [@](#): > > I’m with **Unregistered Bull** in this case - I don’t think it’s an unreasonable action by the authorities. I didn’t say I thought the authorities were unreasonable. I said it was sad. I think it’s sad that the little girl was killed and I think it’s sad that the bear had to be killed, too. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/36 "2006-04-17T20:11:17Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > I didn’t say I thought the authorities were unreasonable. I said it was sad. I think it’s sad that the little girl was killed and I think it’s sad that the bear had to be killed, too. Sorry for misunderstanding your point. I agree with you completely. It is sad for all involved. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/37 "2006-04-17T20:44:52Z")
And in a related story, it’s been announced that a wildlife officer killed the mountain lion involved in [this attack.](http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=vn20060417010004101C274744&set_id=) The public can breathe more easily yet again. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/38 "2006-04-17T21:11:56Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [“Monster rabbit” targets vegetable patch](http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-04-08T131821Z_01_L07416618_RTRUKOC_0_US-RABBIT.xml&pageNumber=0&imageid=&cap=&sz=13): And they laughed at Jimmy Carter. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/39 "2006-04-17T21:13:40Z")
And they laughed at [Jimmy Carter](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_019.html). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995/40 "2006-04-17T22:37:01Z")
It was a rabbit. In fact, it was THE rabbit, at the end of its four long trans-Atlantic swim. What was it about the late 70’s and killer rabbits? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-em-first-then-sort-it-out/352995.md?page=3)