# Kill Saddam, while US can develop all the WMD it wants, what a load of crap! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 1, 2002, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781 "2002-11-01T01:26:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/21 "2002-11-01T10:34:26Z")
I think the difference is that Saddam might be willing actually to use his nuclear weapons, whereas the United States never would. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/22 "2002-11-01T10:52:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I think the difference is that Saddam might be willing actually to use his nuclear weapons, whereas the United States never would. \*\* You are joking, right? My apologies if this is a rather good whoosh, but I can think of two holes in this argument. Having said that, let me also add my support for Bryans arguments on this - I feel a lot more comfortable about the US having WMD’s than I do about Iraq developing them. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/23 "2002-11-01T10:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Simple enough. The US isn’t a fascist dictatorship bent on killing anyone who disagrees with it, unlike Iraq. Yeah, but we’re gettin’ there! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/24 "2002-11-01T10:58:52Z")
Coming from a country (UK) which has nuclear weapons but is - hopefully - unlikely to use them, I share the same misgivings about less “stable” or democratic countries having access to them. However no one state has yet been officially appointed “ruler of the world” by national consensus, so I can’t help feeling inward revulsion at any state being denied sovereignty over itself by another. Sure - if both those states belong to an uber-body with “rules” - such as the UN, then it’s fine for other members to enforce them by whatever agreed measures that uberbody has. In a GD thread on a convention on children (?) that the US hasn’t signed up to, several posters made the valid point that the US does not like things that could interfere with its sovereignty over itself or its own domestic laws/policy. Shouldn’t the same leeway be afforded to other countries? Until God comes down and personally hands out WMD-production-licenses to certain countries, I think all have equal rights to produce them. Morally, WMDs are totally repugnant. The whole concept of such a thing is an act again God, against love, reason and humanity. But when we start “allowing” some nations to have certain weapons/defenses and not other, it become somewhat _quis custodet_\*. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/25 "2002-11-01T11:27:12Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the difference is that Saddam might be willing actually to use his nuclear weapons, whereas the United States never would. A better way of saying it is “The United States has a government with internal controls that would prevent needless use of nuclear weapons, while Iraq does not.” Most of the criticisms of the US regarding this situation seem to fall victim to the “all is equal” fallacy… that one can compare two situations that appear similar on the surface, while ignoring all the factors that make the two situations wildly different. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/26 "2002-11-01T11:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > **A better way of saying it is "The United States has a government with internal controls that would prevent needless use of nuclear weapons, while Iraq does not."** Nor does Pakistan, but I don’t see any threats towards that country. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/27 "2002-11-01T11:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Shouldn’t the same leeway be afforded to other countries? Sure. As long as those countries aren’t slapped with surrender conditions (that they agreed to). It’s like criminal justice. People are left alone (ideally) until they do something wrong. Then they have to prove themselves trustworthy again. So… what has Iraq done to prove themselves trustworthy? Aside from avoid attention in the media, that is. “Hey, Saddam, you’ve got the whole world on your ass… well, just lie low for a while, and they’ll forget everything, and then you can do whatever you want again!” ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/28 "2002-11-01T11:30:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Most of the criticisms of the US regarding this situation seem to fall victim to the “all is equal” fallacy… that one can compare two situations that appear similar on the surface, while ignoring all the factors that make the two situations wildly different. \*\* BTW, I realise that my previous post possibly falls under this umbrella! ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/29 "2002-11-01T11:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Nor does Pakistan, but I don’t see any threats towards that country. Go back to the second part of my post, where I point out the fallacy of assuming two situations to be equal. Then you can get back to me. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/30 "2002-11-01T11:32:19Z")
Ha. What a great simulpost. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Firebat023](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a4c791/32.png) [@Firebat023](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Firebat023)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/31 "2002-11-01T11:38:19Z")
So, to sum up: “When does Bush get to disobey the UN and attack Iraq for disobeying the UN?” From the [fark.com](http://fark.com) message boards ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/32 "2002-11-01T11:38:32Z")
Gary wrote: > [@](#): > > You are joking, right? My apologies if this is a rather good whoosh, but I can think of two holes in this argument. 😉 Do they start with “H” and “N”? (Yes, I was using irony as a rhetorical device.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/33 "2002-11-01T11:42:13Z")
I’d like to add that Article 25, paragraph 4 of the U.S. Constitution reads: > [@](#): > > 1. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. It was written shortly after the Kennedy assassination, when it occured to someone that had Kennedy survived his head wound in a vegetative state, some mechanism to calmly replace him should be in place. It can also be applied if the President has gone visibly nuts, as would be susected if GWB suddenly said “Let’s nuke Sweden!” The Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff would smile and nod while hastily assembling the cabinet and bringing in the Vice President. They are legally entitled to take this course of action. In fact, if they suspect the President of mental illness, they have the _duty_ to invoke Article 25. Now, if Saddam went nuts: (A) who would know? and (B) anyone who tried to stop him would be shot. And when the first nuke lands on Tel Aviv (and the Israeli response nukes land on Baghdad, Damascus, Tripoli, Cairo and Teheran) I’m sure there will be mass anti-U.S. demonstrations demanding to know “Why, oh, why didn’t you stop Iraq when you had the chance! This is all **YOUR** fault!” ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/34 "2002-11-01T11:48:43Z")
It wasn’t invoked when Reagan was clearly becoming incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/35 "2002-11-01T11:53:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Nor does Pakistan, but I don’t see any threats towards that country. \*\* Gee, you didn’t notice that big ol’ spot on the map named INDIA? Pakistan built nukes because India already had them, and if any nation is going to be the first, second and third target of Pakistani nuclear forces, it can only be India, their historical enemies. The U.S. doesn’t really have to spend a lot of time worrying about Pakistan because India will gladly pulverize them if Pakistan gets overly aggresive. A nuclear Iraq, on the other hand, will be in a position to threaten its oil-supplying neighbors and oil remains a critical resource. The only nation in the area that could pulverize them would be Israel, and that will only make the situation massively worse. A nuclear North Korea would be in a position to clobber Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore; all of them major industrial centers. The loss or destabilization of any of them could send the world economy into a huge tailspin. And, ironically, North Korea doesn’t conduct international trade so it would barely be affected at all. So, do you want to stop them now or leave one hell of a mess for your children? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/36 "2002-11-01T11:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*It wasn’t invoked when Reagan was clearly becoming incompetent. \*\* He was just sleepy. Even at his worst, Reagan wasn’t violently crazy. The attack on Libya may have been ill-advised (though if they’d got Ghadafi, we might be looking at it differently) but if he had called for nuclear deployment for no apparant reason, he would have been tucked away in a closet somewhere and George Bush would have stepped up. Saddam, however, says “have that man shot!” and the only question is “rifle or pistol?” ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/37 "2002-11-01T12:00:32Z")
> [@](#): > > **So, do you want to stop them now or leave one hell of a mess for your children?** Hysterical rhetoric aside, the problem (for many non-US countries) seems to be the perceived hypocrisy. If we’re not to compare the Iraq situation with any other situation, then Bush needs to stand up and tell it like it is, rather than making the US’s actions appear to be a moral crusade. IMO it is the invoking of morality that makes people apply **SPOOFE’s** “fallacy of assuming two situations to be equal”. Also remember that if Kennedy hadn’t stood against the hawks, and had invaded Cuba, the result would have been Soviet tactical strikes. ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/38 "2002-11-01T12:11:05Z")
And who would be the first country that is called upon for aid when someone gets shit deep in trouble? Duh, wait, let me think, this is a hard one, it’s taking a while. Why…ding ding ding…that would be AMERICA. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/39 "2002-11-01T12:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*😉 > > Do they start with “H” and “N”? (Yes, I was using irony as a rhetorical device.) \*\* My apologies - I thought as such, but had to check. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781/40 "2002-11-01T12:23:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ultress \* > \*\*And who would be the first country that is called upon for aid when someone gets shit deep in trouble? Duh, wait, let me think, this is a hard one, it’s taking a while. Why…ding ding ding…that would be AMERICA. \*\* Even if that were true, does this “fact” give the US an excuse to act with unilateral impunity? I don’t think so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-saddam-while-us-can-develop-all-the-wmd-it-wants-what-a-load-of-crap/134781.md?page=3)