# Kill the umpire! Or just get rid of them **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 18, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149 "2015-08-18T04:56:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/81 "2015-08-20T19:43:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Maybe home plate had an integral fan to dust off the plate so the umpire didn’t have to. That’s it, Silenius. I think Bill Veeck had that installed, perhaps to pacify umpires irritated with things like his exploding scoreboard. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/82 "2015-08-20T20:29:56Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > No reason that can’t be done with an automated system. Just like we can have different sized fields, we can have different sized/shaped strike zones. Hey, that could become one of the ballpark parameters that home teams get to adjust, like moving the fences or cutting the grass. I think more variation in baseball field conditions _would_ be fun. As long as it’s applied fairly and accurately: the same for both teams, for all players, in all game situations. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/83 "2015-08-20T20:47:14Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Here is the best [explanation](http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/FastPFXGuide.pdf)for PITCHF/x. Basically, they use 2 cameras - one above home plate and one at first base - to track every pitch. With this, you have the exact location of the ball when it crosses home plate. > > The link is a PDF, by the way. Ok. So that puts the camera on 1st base (and hopefully 3rd for guys batting left). That doesn’t encompass the two corners of the strike zone so I assume they have to calculate if the ball is in those regions which will sound like magic to some people. But if they had the camera perpendicular to the line between home plate and second base the ball could be seen on video by the umpire moving through the entire zone. The umpire can decide if it’s also conforming to the batters knees and mid-torso. That’s accurate enough to allow replay confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/84 "2015-08-20T21:04:47Z")
Let me also say that as long as we’re stuck with human umpires calling balls and strikes, I still don’t want them reviewable. Not even once per game. Like I said before, as long as umps are consistent, I can live with weird strike zones. I wouldn’t want a guy who’s been getting an inch off the plate all night to get screwed by PITCHF/x in the 9th inning. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/85 "2015-08-20T21:05:30Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Maybe home plate had an integral fan to dust off the plate so the umpire didn’t have to. I thought it was slang for [the telephone under the plate](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-blo5.htm) for the league officiating office to tell the corrupt and incompetent umpire how he was supposed to call. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/86 "2015-08-20T21:28:05Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Let me also say that as long as we’re stuck with human umpires calling balls and strikes, I still don’t want them reviewable. Not even once per game. Like I said before, as long as umps are consistent, I can live with weird strike zones. I wouldn’t want a guy who’s been getting an inch off the plate all night to get screwed by PITCHF/x in the 9th inning. Agreed. Ball and strike calls are unreviewable for that very reason. I also agree that umpires should be consistent, and their training should focus on that. If MLB finds that an ump is applying their strike zone in a partial manner, that ump can be disciplined or fired. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/87 "2015-08-20T21:37:59Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Wrong. Logical fallacy. Just because “A” is not chosen doesn’t mean “B” **is**. This isn’t a binary problem. In fact, in the opinion of quite a few of us, it isn’t a problem at all. This isn’t a logical fallacy, and I’m not suggesting that it’s a binary problem. My argument: Error and bias should be minimized in all forms. The argument no one is making, that I’m not arguing against: Error and bias are great. We should have more everywhere. The argument several people are making, which I am arguing against: It’s complicated. Sometimes error and bias are good, and sometimes bad. My challenge to anyone making the third argument is to name _any_ other place in the game where adding in some error or bias would improve things. If you can’t think of a single one, then either we’re _extremely_ lucky to have happened upon the perfect combination of empirical measurement and human adjudication that makes baseball the best possible game, or you’re suffering from status quo bias. > [@](#): > > If MLB finds that an ump is applying their strike zone in a partial manner, that ump can be disciplined or fired. Maybe we should just set up some cameras and, based on the evidence, fire all of them, because a human being can’t possibly do the things we ask umpires to do reliably. Training helps, but it can’t overcome physical limitations. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/88 "2015-08-20T21:52:22Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > I absolutely hate it when you get a good batter against a good pitcher, in a key situation with men on base, and the pitcher is working the corners, and the batter is fouling off tough pitches, and it’s a real battle, and then the whole thing unravels because some douche of an umpire calls a pitch six inches off the outside corner a strike. I want Pitch/FX, now. I agree. I was initially lukewarm on the idea of computerized pitching calls, but I’ve long since come to accept that this really is the best and fairest solution. I see no good reason not to implement it, and I’m a guy who doesn’t like the DH and is wistful for all day games at Wrigley, too. I see no way errors in officiating create a “better” game by any measure. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/89 "2015-08-20T21:56:09Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Maybe we should just set up some cameras and, based on the evidence, fire all of them, because a human being can’t possibly do the things we ask umpires to do reliably. Training helps, but it can’t overcome physical limitations. The problem is there are calls that need to be made instantly. Such as a ground ball ( with runners on) directly over 1st/3rd. Was it foul or fair? Infield fly rule. Foul tip. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/90 "2015-08-20T22:57:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The problem is there are calls that need to be made instantly. > > Such as a ground ball ( with runners on) directly over 1st/3rd. Was it foul or fair? > > Infield fly rule. > > Foul tip. Do you think people are faster or better at making those calls than computers? I’d bet that they are not. I will admit that I’m not sure how to programmatically determine if the Infield Fly Rule should be in effect, and we should probably keep a human official for those calls for now. But “did the ball pass through a well-defined volume” is a question that is demonstrably better decided by computers than humans. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/91 "2015-08-21T16:29:27Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Like I said before, as long as umps are consistent, I can live with weird strike zones. I wouldn’t want a guy who’s been getting an inch off the plate all night to get screwed by PITCHF/x in the 9th inning. Really? Like this one? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/mR3eK5gCChM/hqdefault.jpg "1997 NLCS: Worst called game in history") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR3eK5gCChM) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/92 "2015-08-21T16:42:21Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > But “did the ball pass through a well-defined volume” is a question that is demonstrably better decided by computers than humans. The strike zone is not that well defined. We know the pentagonal column of space that extends infinitely upwards from home plate, but the area between the knees and mid-torso is not so well defined, and it’s definition is not intended to provide parameters to a machine, it is intended as instructions for human umpires using their judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/93 "2015-08-21T17:06:25Z")
I disagree. The rules are clearly intended to identify a defined space for the strike zone, with specific and defined parameters. How well these parameters can be reliably implemented by human observers is debatable, but the definition is specific. In fact, it’s a good example of how technology can better employ the codified rule than a human observer. There’s also nothing in the definition of the strike zone that explicitly states that these parameters may be implemented or modified at the discretion of the umpire. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/94 "2015-08-21T17:09:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I disagree. The rules are clearly intended to identify a defined space for the strike zone, with specific and defined parameters. How well these parameters can be reliably implemented by human observers is debatable, but the definition is specific. In fact, it’s a good example of how technology can better employ the codified rule than a human observer. > > There’s also nothing in the definition of the strike zone that explicitly states that these parameters may be implemented or modified at the discretion of the umpire. In the kind of exact terms necessary for a machine to work with, how do you define the location of the knees and the mid-torso? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/95 "2015-08-21T17:27:26Z")
[quote=“koufax, post:91, topic:728149”] Really? Like this one? [/QUOTE] To be fair, the location that is being highlighted in that video is the location of the catcher’s mitt when he catches the ball…which is not necessarily the same as the location that the ball was in as it passed over the plate. If a pitcher throws a ball that has some pretty good lateral movement, it’s quite possible for it to pass over the front corner of the plate, and then be several inches off the plate by the time it gets to the catcher (whose mitt is several inches behind the back of the plate). That said, most of the pitches in that particular were nowhere close to being strikes in any case… But this video is a good example of why ‘pitch tracking’ _used to be_ a demostrably unsatisfactory alternative to umpires; they could pinpoint where the ball was caught, but not where it was when it passed over the plate in midflight. I assume that current technology is vastly superior, but I’m not certain if it’s advanced to the point where it can reliably determine is the ball has touched any point of a variable (in height) three-dimensional rectangular prism while it passes through it on the way to the catcher. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/96 "2015-08-21T17:37:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > In the kind of exact terms necessary for a machine to work with, how do you define the location of the knees and the mid-torso? You adhere to the baseball rulebook. At the extreme, you place a tiny marker that the machine can detect in each player’s uniform at “the hollow beneath the kneecap” and another at “the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants” when they are in their natural batters stance. At the less extreme, you have those points estimated without requiring the physical markers. They must already be doing that for current strike zone technology, right? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/97 "2015-08-21T17:45:32Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You adhere to the baseball rulebook. At the extreme, you place a tiny marker that the machine can detect in each player’s uniform at “the hollow beneath the kneecap” and another at “the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants” when they are in their natural batters stance. > > At the less extreme, you have those points estimated without requiring the physical markers. They must already be doing that for current strike zone technology, right? I’m not clear yet what current technology does. Yes, you could add physical markers but that adds new rules. I’m just saying it’s not as simple as taking our best technology and implementing it today. My personal preference would be to use video solutions for replay capability, but I’ll focus now on the technical aspects, and while I think the equipment is accurate enough to register where the ball is relative to the plate it will still take more to have it replace a human umpire altogether. Perhaps another approach is to define a specific strike zone height starting from the knee caps which must somehow be clearly marked. Or for all around fairness (for some values of fairness) the strike zone is defined as a height range over the plate and no longer based on a players movable and indistinct body parts. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/98 "2015-08-21T18:03:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not clear yet what current technology does. Yes, you could add physical markers but that adds new rules. I’m just saying it’s not as simple as taking our best technology and implementing it today. My personal preference would be to use video solutions for replay capability, but I’ll focus now on the technical aspects, and while I think the equipment is accurate enough to register where the ball is relative to the plate it will still take more to have it replace a human umpire altogether. > > Perhaps another approach is to define a specific strike zone height starting from the knee caps which must somehow be clearly marked. Or for all around fairness (for some values of fairness) the strike zone is defined as a height range over the plate and no longer based on a players movable and indistinct body parts. How would what I wrote add new rules? I was quoting specifically from the MLB rule book where the strike zone is defined. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/99 "2015-08-21T18:08:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > How would what I wrote add new rules? I was quoting specifically from the MLB rule book where the strike zone is defined. No machine can use that definition of the strike zone without marking the uniforms or using some kind of sensor to determine the points on a players body unambiguously. How does a machine determine what a player’s natural stance is? How does it see a hollow below the knee through a uniform? How does it determine midpoint from a 2D image of a players irregular torso in an arbitrary position? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149/100 "2015-08-21T18:12:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No machine can use that definition of the strike zone without marking the uniforms or using some kind of sensor to determine the points on a players body unambiguously. How does a machine determine what a player’s natural stance is? How does it see a hollow below the knee through a uniform? How does it determine midpoint from a 2D image of a players irregular torso in an arbitrary position? One could place markers in the uniform at these points. That no more creates a new rule than the grounds crew is creating a new rule when they chalk in the foul lines before the game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kill-the-umpire-or-just-get-rid-of-them/728149.md?page=6)