# "Killed" bacteria doesn't count? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067 "2012-03-17T18:06:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/1 "2012-03-17T18:06:53Z")
Is it true that “dead” bacteria doesn’t count as contamination in foods according to the FDA? Example; Ground beef treated with “Pink Slime”. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/2 "2012-03-17T22:50:48Z")
Off the top of my head, I can’t see any conceivable circumstance that would eliminate dead bacteria. All sterilization techniques I can think of kill bacteria; they don’t transport them into the fourth dimension. If sterile objects by definition contain dead bacteria how could you classify them as contaminated without saying that every single thing is the world is now and forever contaminated? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/3 "2012-03-17T23:04:07Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Off the top of my head, I can’t see any conceivable circumstance that would eliminate dead bacteria. All sterilization techniques I can think of kill bacteria; they don’t transport them into the fourth dimension. If sterile objects by definition contain dead bacteria how could you classify them as contaminated without saying that every single thing is the world is now and forever contaminated? And as a corollary of this, how the hell would you even know that food contained dead bacteria? We normally test for bacterial contamination by growing the things in culture media or testing for the presence of bacterial byproducts. If you’ve got dead bacteria, these obviously ain’t gonna work. It’s not like you can locate bacterial corpses by the tiny flocks of vultures circling over them. You’d need to use some really high powered microscopy of some incredibly carefully prepared samples to even know they were there. Unless the bacterial load was ridiculously high to start with, you wouldn’t see them even then. There are some chemical tests for dead bacteria, but they are expensive, time consuming and I don’t quite see why anybody would ever bother to use them on a hot dog. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/4 "2012-03-17T23:51:37Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Is it true that “dead” bacteria doesn’t count as contamination in foods according to the FDA? > Example; Ground beef treated with “Pink Slime”. > Peace, > mangeorge How about “no bacteria” of the harmful type? Sorry, I thought that was clear. It is possible to produce ground beef without harmful bacteria. I do it all the time at home. The producers I read about claimed to add “pink slime” to their hamburger to kill the ecoli. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/5 "2012-03-18T00:02:09Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Is it true that “dead” bacteria doesn’t count as contamination in foods according to the FDA? > Example; Ground beef treated with “Pink Slime”. > Peace, > mangeorge > [@Blake](#): > > And as a corollary of this, how the hell would you even know that food contained dead bacteria? We normally test for bacterial contamination by growing the things in culture media or testing for the presence of bacterial byproducts. If you’ve got dead bacteria, these obviously ain’t gonna work. > > It’s not like you can locate bacterial corpses by the tiny flocks of vultures circling over them. You’d need to use some really high powered microscopy of some incredibly carefully prepared samples to even know they were there. Unless the bacterial load was ridiculously high to start with, you wouldn’t see them even then. > > There are some chemical tests for dead bacteria, but they are expensive, time consuming and I don’t quite see why anybody would ever bother to use them on a hot dog. Ground beef, not hot dogs. 😉 I’m not one to trust meat factories very much. If they say they need to add pink slime to kill off harmful bacteria, I’m gonna assume there’s dead bacteria in it. Pink slime is, after all, much cheaper than lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/6 "2012-03-18T00:12:09Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > It is possible to produce ground beef without harmful bacteria. I do it all the time at home. How do you know? Do you culture your ground meat every time? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/7 "2012-03-18T00:34:21Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > How about “no bacteria” of the harmful type? Sorry, I thought that was clear. It is possible to produce ground beef without harmful bacteria. I do it all the time at home. Your ground beef has e. coli in it too; just not in amounts large enough to cause illness. E. coli is everywhere. > [@](#): > > The producers I read about claimed to add “pink slime” to their hamburger to kill the ecoli. [“Pink slime”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Slime) is mechanically separated meat that has been treated with ammonium hydroxide to kill bacteria. I doubt pink slime is used to kill bacteria in additional ground beef. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/8 "2012-03-18T00:36:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [“Pink slime”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Slime) is mechanically separated meat that has been treated with ammonium hydroxide to kill bacteria. I doubt pink slime is used to kill bacteria in additional ground beef. It helps because it raises the pH of the meat, creating an inhospitable environment for bacteria. I don’t recall the details, but I think there are some bacteria which are toxic even when dead. They are going to reproduce, they just poison you. I don’t think this applies to hamburger and beef products though. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/9 "2012-03-18T00:41:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It helps because it raises the pH of the meat, creating an inhospitable environment for bacteria. That is different from killing bacteria, though. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/10 "2012-03-18T00:44:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t recall the details, but I think there are some bacteria which are toxic even when dead. They are going to reproduce, they just poison you. I don’t think this applies to hamburger and beef products though. Botulism is the classic example of this, and it’s notorious for contaminating home-made ground meat products such as hamburger. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/11 "2012-03-18T00:45:47Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > How do you know? > Do you culture your ground meat every time? Yep. In my tummy. No squirts, no foul. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/12 "2012-03-18T00:47:02Z")
You’re free to pick them off individually, you know. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/13 "2012-03-18T00:58:42Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Botulism is the classic example of this, and it’s notorious for contaminating home-made ground meat products such as hamburger. Actually I was thinking of Ciguatera, also called fish poisoning, but I had to look it up. I’m unaware of botulism being found in ground beef. Would that come from external contamination, or infected cattle? ETA: I guess since you specify ‘home-made’ it would be external contamination. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/14 "2012-03-18T01:03:15Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > You’re free to pick them off individually, you know. Using a high powered rifle and a scope. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/15 "2012-03-18T01:08:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Your ground beef has e. coli in it too; just not in amounts large enough to cause illness. E. coli is everywhere. [“Pink slime”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Slime) is mechanically separated meat that has been treated with ammonium hydroxide to kill bacteria. I doubt pink slime is used to kill bacteria in additional ground beef. #1 Which is why you need to wash the cuts of beef before you grind it. Bacteria is mainly on the surface of the meat. That’s why food safety folks have baked off on their worry about steaks and roasts. I think, no cite. Wait a minit, this ain’t GD! #2 Aha! so _those_ dead bacteria, in the pink slime, are allowed by the FDA to slip by. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/16 "2012-03-18T01:10:39Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > #2 Aha! so _those_ dead bacteria, in the pink slime, are allowed by the FDA to slip by. I would assume so, as I am unaware of any test that would detect dead bacteria. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/17 "2012-03-18T01:13:55Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > #1 Which is why you need to wash the cuts of beef before you grind it. Tapwater isn’t sterile, and washing with tapwater is likely to introduce more bacteria than it removes. Washing really needs to be done with boiled water, or water treated with a sterilant. > [@](#): > > #2 Aha! so _those_ dead bacteria, in the pink slime, are allowed by the FDA to slip by. In case this isn’t a joke, all dead bacteria are allowed to “slip by” There’s no easy test for them and since they have no effect at all on quality or health nobody gives a shit. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/18 "2012-03-18T01:26:16Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > How about “no bacteria” of the harmful type? Sorry, I thought that was clear. It is possible to produce ground beef without harmful bacteria. I do it all the time at home. This isn’t making any sense. There’s always bacteria in food, including some harmful bacteria, and an unknown amount of dead bacteria. There’s no such thing as food with _no_ harmful bacteria, and as for dead bacteria, it would be (1) impossible to detect, and (2) impossible to eliminate. Botulinum toxin does remain even after the botulinus is dead, but in that case, the problem is the presence of the toxin itself, not the presence of the dead botulinus. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/19 "2012-03-18T01:31:41Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Tapwater isn’t sterile, and washing with tapwater is likely to introduce more bacteria than it removes. > > Washing really needs to be done with boiled water, or water treated with a sterilant. > > In case this isn’t a joke, all dead bacteria are allowed to “slip by” There’s no easy test for them and since they have no effect at all on quality or health nobody gives a shit. Tap water needn’t be sterile because it doesn’t comtain harmful levels of bacteria. Mine doesn’t anyway. Water removes most of the bacteria from the _surface_ of cuts of meat mechanically. If you clean hands and tools and wash the meat you can even eat rare burgers without worry\* if you cook it promptly. Yum. Seared rare ground beef. \*I am not a food safety expert, so any risk in consuming any beef is your own. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067/20 "2012-03-18T01:37:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This isn’t making any sense. There’s always bacteria in food, including some harmful bacteria, and an unknown amount of dead bacteria. There’s no such thing as food with _no_ harmful bacteria, and as for dead bacteria, it would be (1) impossible to detect, and (2) impossible to eliminate. > > Botulinum toxin does remain even after the botulinus is dead, but in that case, the problem is the presence of the toxin itself, not the presence of the dead botulinus. Okay, I should have said “not enough bad bacteria to be harmful”. I got excited ib the heat of battle. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killed-bacteria-doesnt-count/616067.md?page=2)