# Killing for sport? Give me a break. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 23, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367 "2002-11-23T18:56:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Triss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Triss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triss)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/61 "2002-11-25T05:20:04Z")
One more opinion in defense of deer hunting. Many hunters are conservationists at heart who honour and respect their prey in a way that’s sometimes (understandably) hard to fathom for others. They are often people who’ve come to know and love the bush and are intimately familiar with everything therein. Conservation authorities in many areas of Ontario consider their input and information about conditions in the bush to be invaluable. My ol’ man deer-hunts once a year and he has a regard for these animals that borders on love. He’s spent years studying their behaviour and habitat and I know that he would agree with others in this thread who have asserted that deer are far from defenseless. In Ontario, you require a doe tag to take females. I believe it’s done in a lottery-type fashion by the Ministry of Natural Resources. Does are usually more numerous than bucks in a given area and my husband and his hunting companions have noted buck behaviour bordering on the paranoid, for example: Bucks will trail a herd of does into clearings, seemingly only willing to enter when the coast appears clear, if at all. Whether this type of behaviour is due to the rut, or the activity of hunters, they’re not sure. Another thing which may not be very well-known: Among hunters there is something like a code of honour when it comes to clean killing. It’s a matter for shame if someone wounds an animal without killing it outright and they may not rest until they find the wounded animal and put it out of it’s misery. This could mean tracking blood stains or other sign for as long as necessary, no wimping out due to cold, fatigue, hunger or whatever. There is enormous, unspoken peer pressure amongst themselves to hold fire unless and until the shot can be positioned properly. This gives the hunter about a split-second to decide, and they are required to err on the side of caution. Hunters who don’t abide by this code are not welcome among those who do. Obviously not all hunters are equal, but anyone who is perceived as having a “cowboy” mentality or cavalier attitude in the bush, whether towards gun safety or standards of behaviour, would be quickly ostracized from most hunting groups that we are aware of. In our neck of the woods, bear-baiting and the like is universally looked down upon as contemptible. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/62 "2002-11-25T06:09:53Z")
Hunters in Ontario are of mixed benefit to the environment. On the good side, the head office of the OFAH put on a magnificient intervention in the Timber Management Class EA, propounding habitat supply analysis, watershed management, and indicator species (e.g. pileated woodpecker and pine martin). They lit a match under the MNR’s butt, when no other group had the resources to do so. On the down side, local groups affiliated with or part of OFAH frequently come down on the side of opening up access or resisting the closure of roads. This is a bad thing for the re-introduction of cougar in the north-west of the province, and for the caribou herds on the north shore of Superior, both of which have a strong aversion to people. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/63 "2002-11-25T07:47:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ice Wolf \* > \*\*About the only time I’d do more than state my abhorrence of the sport of hunting is when we have a repeat of the disappearence of the Passenger Pigeon (to use an extreme example). > > Hmm. Just re-read the OP, and it doesn’t dictate anything, just gives an opinion that opposes your own. T’is th’ way of the world. If we all agreed with each other, it’d be boring. \*\* Far too many anti-hunting folks would cheerfully ban the sport altogether. On the other hand, I have never known a hunter who would impell nonhunters to get out there and kill something. Just out of idle curiosity, how has the extinction of the passenger pigeon affected you or your life? ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/64 "2002-11-25T08:06:02Z")
> [@](#): > > _Orig. by LouisB_ > Just out of idle curiosity, how has the extinction of the passenger pigeon affected you or your life? It’s an example of how a “renewable resource” wasn’t so renewable after all, **LouisB**. The loss of parts of the biological diversity of the planet do, I believe, affect us all in some way or form. BUT, as I said, it was an extreme example. Nothing said in this thread against the sport of hunting will actually sway those who take part, or do anything to stop it. This I know. But at least it has given some of us a chance to speak out and say how we feel about the practice. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/65 "2002-11-25T09:06:22Z")
The extinction of the passenger pigeon is, perhaps, unfortunate. It was mostly brought about by market hunters acting in ignorance. Had there been no market, they wouldn’t (maybe) have become extinct. We continue to lose life forms to extinction today and yet we continue to despoil various life form’s natural habitat. We cut trees, practice slash and burn agriculture, polute waters and plow prairies with wild abandon the world over. I doubt very much that hunting has caused the extinction of nearly so many life forms as the spread of the human race. I have asked this before and have never received an answer: Would you, as an individual, give up your home and your employment if such an action would restore the habitat of an endangered species? ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/66 "2002-11-25T10:24:03Z")
Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/67 "2002-11-25T10:46:34Z")
But that’s just me. As I’ve said, I’m prepared to simply agree to disagree with you, **LouisB** and the other ardent enthusiasts in this thread. The opinions expressed here have been – _interesting_, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Doc\_Nickel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5fc32e/32.png) [@Doc\_Nickel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doc_Nickel)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/68 "2002-11-25T11:15:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ice Wolf \* > \*\*Renewable resource. Hmmm. > > So, do you mean that life, when the need to pass some leisure time comes around, is just there to provide targets? Like a sideshow shooting gallery, where no matter how many ducks ya shoot, more will pop up, no worries? \*\* -Well, yes, actually. If by “leisure time” you mean the five days weeks to two months per year, depending on locale, where hunting certain animals is legal, and by “no matter how many” meaning the one or possibly two, again depending on your area, legally allowed by your tag or permit, then yes. Have any other hyperoble you’d like explained? ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/69 "2002-11-25T13:19:15Z")
**Ice Wolf,** perhaps you would give up your home in order to restore the habitat of an endangered species. If so, I suspect you are a distinct minority. I know that I wouldn’t, unless the government or some ecology group was willing to pay me the fair market value of my home, plus a substantial bonus, plus all moving costs. I suspect that most people wouldn’t willingly relocate for the sake of any endangered species. In any event, I doubt the question will ever arise in real life so it is probably a very moot issue. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/70 "2002-11-25T19:28:31Z")
" know that I wouldn’t, unless the government or some ecology group was willing to pay me the fair market value of my home, plus a substantial bonus, plus all moving costs. I suspect that most people wouldn’t willingly relocate for the sake of any endangered species. In any event, I doubt the question will ever arise in real life so it is probably a very moot issue. " It happens all the time when they decide to build a highway, and homeowners rarely get the kind of concessions you are asking for. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/71 "2002-11-25T20:00:45Z")
That’s a very good point, **CarnalK**. Authorities don’t usually go around offering “bonuses” and “moving costs”, much less any other costs such as those involved with pulling up community “tap roots” when a homeowner and his/her family are forced to move due to the needs of urban progress. My own community is facing the hard realities of this right now. Yes, **LouisB** , I did say that it was “just me”. My take on this issue, though, remains this: I don’t expect the hunting to stop, such would be expecting too much. You won’t find me, personally, trying to bar you from doing it. But, in turn, I abhor hunting for leisure. The Passenger Pigeons truly belong in another thread, in another debate right along with the fate of whales and ocean fish stocks etc. One which discusses how mankind sees life, indeed nature itself, as a commodity to be used until it is too late to repair the damage. Oh, and why the questions of extinct species ethics anyway? I thought hunting for leisure had little impact on the extinction of species, so I was given to understand by some of the contributors here. I’m sorry I didn’t give you the rise you may have expected – th’ spluttering Greenie, the “Well, change the world, but not in _my_ backyard!” type. Good discussion, everyone. 🙂 Oh, and **Doc Nickel**? I think you’ve explained _quite_ enough, thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/72 "2002-11-25T20:29:57Z")
I think there is something seriously wrong with the brains of deer hunters. Getting up out of a nice, warm bed at 4 am to stand in a tree on the coldest days of the year? Insane. All of you. (Myself included.) ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/73 "2002-11-25T20:37:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\*I don’t understand why it makes you sick. > > Marc \*\* Enjoying ending something’s life… to me that is sick. Sorry if you don’t agree, but it is my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/74 "2002-11-25T20:49:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CthulhuSpawn \* > \*\*You do know that there’s more to hunting than killing, don’t you? \*\* Like what, camping? You can do that without killing. I don’t care if you put on a pair of lederhosen and dance the macarena in a frenzy of tribal bonding. You don’t have to kill anything. Again, I can accept that some killing is neccessary. The thing that sickens me are the people who _enjoy doing the killing_. I could never look at a healthy animal and kill it. And if I did, I’d be, quite literally, emotionally scarred for life. I am still occasionally haunted by the rabbit I hit with my car when I was 16. I don’t give a flying shit what your reasons or excuses are. I don’t care at all what our ancestors did. I, personally, am sickened by the idea of enjoying killing. Take an extreme (yet parallel on a vastly different level) example: a doctor has to abort a baby to save the life of the mother. Most people can accept that as a necessity and not have any qualms about that. Now imagine that the doctor actively enjoys the process of killing the fetus. It becomes creepy, no? Regardless of the necessity of the act? > [@](#): > > Haven’t we gone past the need for sex now? With all the tecniques for artificial insemination there’s absolutely no need for people to have sex in order to secure the future of the species. Get rid of it immediately! It just sickens me to think of people enjoy such a nasty, primative act when there’s no need for it. Different ballpark there, fella. Sex is enjoyable to both parties and doesn’t hurt anyone. Hunting KILLS A LIVING BEING. See the difference? And before anyone goes out and calls me a big hypocrit: I haven’t eaten meat in 16 years, and I don’t buy leather products either. I should mention that nothing anyone says is going to change my opinion here… I love animals _a lot_. I don’t (and never will) dig on people who enjoy killing them. Period. It may float your boat–good for you–but it sinks mine. PS I’m having a Bad Spelling Day. Please forgive me. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/75 "2002-11-25T20:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*Enjoying ending something’s life… to me that is sick. Sorry if you don’t agree, but it is my opinion. \*\* Yes. That would be sick. Fortunately that’s not what hunting is about. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/76 "2002-11-25T20:58:28Z")
Opal: > [@](#): > > And before anyone goes out and calls me a big hypocrit: I haven’t eaten meat in 16 years, and I don’t buy leather products either. You’re still a big hypocrite. Every breath you take kills. Every time you move your body, you kill. Every time you go out and mow the lawn you kill. Every time you eat a salad you kill, and countless animals were killed in creating that meal. When you run a tractor and plow and plant and harvest, you kill gophers and moles and rabbits and turtles by the thousands. Every time you walk across the grass you kill crickets and worms and the occasional small mammal. Do you enjoy walking across the grass? Do you enjoy eating a salad? Then you enjoy killing as much as I do when I hunt. ---
**Author:** ![CthulhuSpawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@CthulhuSpawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CthulhuSpawn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/77 "2002-11-25T21:01:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > You don’t have to kill anything. \*\* If I want to eat venison, then yes, I do have to kill something or pay someone else to do it for me. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The thing that sickens me are the people who _enjoy doing the killing_. \*\* You keep saying that. You don’t seem to understand, though, that hunting is different than killing. People do not hunt in order to kill, rather you must kill in order to have hunted. The killing part is not what people enjoy. Stop throwing that around like you know what goes on in hunters’ minds. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Different ballpark there, fella. Sex is enjoyable to both parties and doesn’t hurt anyone. Hunting KILLS A LIVING > BEING. See the difference? \*\* First of all I’m not a “fella.” I’m female. Wow, I can hear the surprise. Sex can spread many terrible diseases and result in unplanned pregnancies and emotionally scar people for life (no, I don’t believe in emotionally scarring for life, but I guess you do.) so it’s not always without harm. We have the technology to do without it. Why shouldn’t we? Anyway, please tell me what the difference is between my killing of a deer and a mountain lion’s killing of a deer. Does a deer somehow ‘consent’ to a mountain lion before the kill? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/78 "2002-11-25T21:03:46Z")
So you don’t enjoy killing the animal? You feel a lot of regret and sadness when you actually kill the animal? Then why do it? ---
**Author:** ![metroshane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@metroshane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/metroshane)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/79 "2002-11-25T21:05:41Z")
I used to be opposed to hunting because I was of the opinion…" I don’t need to hunt because I have a job and I can go to the grocery store and buy meat." That was such a BS copout. If you don’t want animals to die to feed you, become a vegatarian…but if you think you’re any better because you buy it from the store, then you have no clue about the butchering process. It’s much more humane to hunt your food than buy it at the grocery store. And I haven’t heard of any substantial sport killing since the pioneers wiped out buffalo from the trains. Sure hunting for sport is bad…we can all probably agree to that…but why argue because I can’t recall anyone I’ve ever met to kill for sport only. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367/80 "2002-11-25T21:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CthulhuSpawn \* > **If I want to eat venison, then yes, I do have to kill something or pay someone else to do it for me.** There’s plenty to eat without eating venison. I don’t think that my taste buds take priority over something living its life. > [@](#): > > **You keep saying that. The killing part is not what people enjoy. Stop throwing that around like you know what goes on in hunters’ minds.** So why do the killing part? I know that this goes on in a hunter’s mind: I’m going to do this activity, and it is going to involve ending the life of an animal, and I have no problem with that. Sorry, but I can’t get behind that. People like that will always cause a feeling of disgust in me. > [@](#): > > **Sex can spread many terrible diseases and result in unplanned pregnancies and emotionally scar people for life (no, I don’t believe in emotionally scarring for life, but I guess you do.) so it’s not always without harm. We have the technology to do without it. Why shouldn’t we?** We have the technology to avoid the diseases and unplanned pregnancies, so it seems more logical to use those. By ‘emotional scarring for life’ I mean that something bothers you for the rest of your life. > [@](#): > > \*\*Anyway, please tell me what the difference is between my killing of a deer and a mountain lion’s killing of a deer. Does a deer somehow ‘consent’ to a mountain lion before the kill? \*\* No, but the lion doesn’t have any other choices. You do. I know that you aren’t going to become a vegetarian, but my point here is valid: nobody needs to eat meat. Eating meat is a choice. You CAN be perfectly healthy without it. Thus, the meat aspect of hunting is not a _need_. And to add, I’m not saying that people shouldn’t hunt, or telling you not to hunt, etc. I’m just saying that the people who do hunt don’t get on my happy list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-for-sport-give-me-a-break/138367.md?page=5)