# Killing Hitler's Wife and Children **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766 "2009-08-08T20:15:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/61 "2009-08-09T06:54:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So does it all come down to Mens rea? > > Start then, we with the premise that the murder is NOT morally neutral, he is bad, he his morally negative. How then, do we kill him while remaining morally positive? > > We went into Afghanistan because of the attacks on 9/11, in which approximately 3000 civilians were slaughtered. But then what happens after we’re responsible for 3000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan? > > I remember during the last Israeli war against Gaza, trying to explain why it was okay for Israel to kill civilians while targeting militants, but not okay for militants to kill civilians while targeting civilians. > > The answer always came back, “it’s not okay to target civilians.” > > So would it have been okay if the militants were targeting something else and then just missing really bad? > > Sad another, and more inflammatory way, what if bin Laden said, “oops, I was trying to hit a military base, my bad.” I think it’s a bogus distinction anyway. If you know an action will kill civilians, then you’re targeting civilians. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/62 "2009-08-09T07:20:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This makes no sense whatsoever. If a child’s parents abuse it, then the child does not deserve to live? > > I guess I’m going to have to be on the “PC” side and go ahead and say that genocide is evil. I’m sure I’ll probably get flamed for it. Genocide for the sake of genocide is evil. The practices of the Taliban and the alQaida are evil. They would happily drop a nuke on every major city of the western world [I would assume they more or less mean any city that is not muslim] as they have stated that they do want to bring down the western world and make the world conform to their little narrowly defined version of Islam. We do not want them to convert to christianity [other than maybe the fundies and the pope…] and are happy if they just take up some human rights practices. If there is some civillian collateral damage, it is not genocide. Carpet bombing the entire country is genocide. A surgical strike is not. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/63 "2009-08-09T10:33:39Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So does it all come down to Mens rea? Much of it. Also the laws of war and a few other tidbits. > [@emacknight](#): > > Start then, we with the premise that the murder is NOT morally neutral, he is bad, he his morally negative. How then, do we kill him while remaining morally positive? For the same reason that we have a category for justifiable homicide and homicide in self defense. And for the same reason that killing a puppy is a bad thing to do but not putting down a mad dog and letting it go and attack more people can, likewise, be a bad thing to do. > [@emacknight](#): > > We went into Afghanistan because of the attacks on 9/11, in which approximately 3000 civilians were slaughtered. But then what happens after we’re responsible for 3000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan? Then we keep going until the mission, based on a valid casus belli, is completed. The mission wasn’t “kill as many of their civilians as they killed of ours”. > [@emacknight](#): > > So would it have been okay if the militants were targeting something else and then just missing really bad? Depends. At a certain point you’re talking about indiscriminate bombings. But yes, if you attack a valid military target with a precision weapon and miss, then it’s part of the nature of war. It’s actually targeting civilians with no military objective that we have, pretty much as a species, decided is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/64 "2009-08-09T11:27:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > “Want” has nothing to do with it, but I would not intentionally kill a child for any reason. All attempts to justify it are bullshit. I am with you on the “never-ever-kill-a-child-period” in spirit, but I must ask; were the children in this case killed\* intentionally?\* Were their deaths an objective of the mission? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/65 "2009-08-09T11:32:38Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Isn’t there a word for this? When you kill civilians to strike fear in them, and try to cause an effect? I believe when Islamo-fascists do it we call it terrorism. So what is it when we do it? Freedom-Fries. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/66 "2009-08-09T11:45:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > If Stevie McKillface went on a rampage in a diner and then retreated to his home and barricaded himself in and opened fire on the police when they tried to arrest him, then yeah, I’d say if anybody in the home was harmed when SWAT went in that the moral responsibility would lie 100% on Mr. McKillface. To continue with that analogy; was the Taliban leader firing on enemy (in this case… us) forces? If so, then I would agree that he forfeited his right to snuggly bunnies and warm milk at bed-time. If not, well, then it is merely an assassination in a foreign territory–along with “incidental” assassination of innocents (or _collateral assassination_ if you prefer). Further, since this is a “war” only because we say it is, the Geneva Convention rules have, arguably, only a dubious application–at least in a just world where the United States didn’t get to make up its own rules because it could kick anyone’s ass who disagreed. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/67 "2009-08-09T15:50:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All innocence is equal. For instance in Japan in World War 2. Would it have been better for us to invade Japan in Operation Olympic and have 300,000 or 500,000 of America’s most promising young men be killed to save the lives of enemy civilians. I don’t know about you but war is hell as Sherman said and to be perfectly frank in a war you should care about your people first not the enemy’s. Perhaps it’s because I’m 2nd generation Korean American that I think so. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/68 "2009-08-09T16:09:56Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > For instance in Japan in World War 2. Would it have been better for us to invade Japan in Operation Olympic and have 300,000 or 500,000 of America’s most promising young men be killed to save the lives of enemy civilians. I don’t know about you but war is hell as Sherman said and to be perfectly frank in a war you should care about your people first not the enemy’s. Perhaps it’s because I’m 2nd generation Korean American that I think so. One might argue though, that is the exact sort of tribalistic thinking that causes wars in the first place. “Our soldiers are more important than their civilians.” “Lives of people like us are more important than lives of people that are different.” I don’t see a far stretch from that reasoning to saying, “Lives of Christians are more important that the lives of [other religion]” I can’t help but feel the first stage in the process is to demonize the other side. Call them things like heathens, commies, godless sinners in order to make killing them all the more pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/69 "2009-08-09T16:17:01Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > For instance in Japan in World War 2. Would it have been better for us to invade Japan in Operation Olympic and have 300,000 or 500,000 of America’s most promising young men be killed to save the lives of enemy civilians. Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/70 "2009-08-09T16:28:14Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Genocide for the sake of genocide is evil. The practices of the Taliban and the alQaida are evil. They would happily drop a nuke on every major city of the western world [I would assume they more or less mean any city that is not muslim] as they have stated that they do want to bring down the western world and make the world conform to their little narrowly defined version of Islam. > > We do not want them to convert to christianity [other than maybe the fundies and the pope…] and are happy if they just take up some human rights practices. If there is some civillian collateral damage, it is not genocide. Carpet bombing the entire country is genocide. A surgical strike is not. Read the post by **Friar Ted** that I was responding to. Also look at **Scrivener’s** post #15. They weren’t talking about surgical strikes, but actually talking about eradicating entire populations. Scrivner’s post is especially loathesome. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/71 "2009-08-09T16:53:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes. Are you assuming that there would have been no civilian casualties in an invasion of Japan? I’d suggest that they would have been staggering; at least an order of magnitude greater than the losses from bombing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/72 "2009-08-09T17:00:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > (That being said, I don’t think nukes should be used except in extreme circumstances…) “except in extreme circumstances” ? I’m shocked I’ll tell you to read that. Are you speaking for all countries or just the US ? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/73 "2009-08-09T17:51:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Are you assuming that there would have been no civilian casualties in an invasion of Japan? I’d suggest that they would have been staggering; at least an order of magnitude greater than the losses from bombing. Then we didn’t have to invade Japan either. We didn’t have to keep fighting Japan at all. We could have just gone home. Japan was no threat to us. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/74 "2009-08-09T18:07:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Read the post by **Friar Ted** that I was responding to. Also look at **Scrivener’s** post #15. They weren’t talking about surgical strikes, but actually talking about eradicating entire populations. Scrivner’s post is especially loathesome. A qualification: I endorse a strategy of intentionally wiping out every remnant of the Taliban tribal clans, but that’s not the same thing as destroying entire villages per se, let alone ethnic groups (like Pashtuns). The Taliban are a minority of belligerent malcontents preying upon the majority populations of Afghanistan and Pakistan (often taking over their villages and terrorizing the locals), and notwithstanding occasional terrorist attacks in the west, it’s those populations that are the Taliban’s primary victims. The traditional definition of genocide is the concerted effort to eradicate a group on an political/ethnic/racial/religious/cultural/linguistic basis. I don’t think targeting a band of violent terrorists and insurgents who are waging a perpetual asymmetrical war against the legitimate governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan (and who have no problem with killing civilians, BTW) really counts as “genocide,” unless the Taliban’s methods of terrorizing and subjugating the villages under their thumb counts as “politics”. The Taliban, for all their tribal/clan organizational tendencies, are a group defined primarily by their violent actions, and not by any traditional identity marker like ethnicity. But if targeting the Taliban in a truly effective manner qualifies as “genocide,” then it may be the only morally justified example of it. In the long run, it’s not merely genocide but self-defense to eliminate tribal and clan groups which have no intention of living peacefully with others – and indeed, have no religious or ideological _provision_ for peaceful coexistence – and whose \*raison d’etre \*consists of the violent subjugation of all others who fail to share their proclivities, by eliminating all traces of non-Wahabbist power structures, culture, religion, and values. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/75 "2009-08-09T18:38:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Then we didn’t have to invade Japan either. We didn’t have to keep fighting Japan at all. We could have just gone home. Japan was no threat to us. What, and ignore the will of the American people, as voiced by their representatives in the House (well, all but one) and Senate in a [formal declaration of war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States)? That would’ve been positively _undemocratic_ of FDR (not to mention nonsensical, self-defeating, pusillanimous, and insensitive to the plight of the Chinese, Philippinos, Malays, Koreans, etc. under attack by Japan)… Interestingly, [the wording of the formal declaration of war](http://www.historyguy.com/us_dec_war_japan.html) identified the enemy as “the Imperial Government of Japan” and not “Japan” or “the people of Japan” – admirable restraint, considering. Of course, that didn’t preclude our using military tactics and strategies that ultimately resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/76 "2009-08-09T18:54:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Then we didn’t have to invade Japan either. We didn’t have to keep fighting Japan at all. We could have just gone home. Japan was no threat to us. Do the words “Pearl Harbour” mean anything to you? Your views are actively harmful, as you are suggesting that the use of evil tactics - the use of innocent civilians as human shields to protect yourself from retaliation - should be rewarded and encouraged. They only do it because it _works_, and it only works because of people that hold the same views you do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/77 "2009-08-09T19:03:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How about this. Let’s set aside the issue of killing children and change it to rape. Would you be willing to rape a baby to save a thousand lives? If you really want to me to contrive a scenario, I can do it, but just taking it at face value, isn’t it less bad to rape a baby than to kill one? If you’re willing to kill that baby, then you should have no problem with raping it. > > Does that sound too out there? Well how about this. You can save 10,000 soldiers, and all you have to do is pour gasoline on a four year old and set him on fire. That’s not out there at all. That’s what inceniary weapons do, they set little kids on fire. If you’re willing to do it from long range, you should have no problem doing it by hand. > > the problem is that people don’t really, truly think through the horror of what they say they’re willing to do whn it’s a long distance hypothetical. Except it isn’t long distnace or hypothetical for the families you’re willing to hurt. Now your just gettign sick. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/78 "2009-08-09T19:20:48Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > Now your just gettign sick. Could it be that **Dio’s** incisive argument is actually making you sick ? There is really no convincing counter to his point, and it must make you dizzy to find one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/79 "2009-08-09T19:27:19Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > To continue with that analogy; was the Taliban leader firing on enemy (in this case… us) forces? If so, then I would agree that he forfeited his right to snuggly bunnies and warm milk at bed-time. If not, well, then it is merely an assassination in a foreign territory No, that is silly. Generals and enemy forces’ leaders do not have to be directly involved in hostilities to be valid targets of war. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Further, since this is a “war” only because we say it is, the Geneva Convention rules have, arguably, only a dubious application That is even sillier. When one side says it’s a war and starts dropping bombs, well… it’s a war. What, you think that only mutually agreed upon wars ‘count’? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/80 "2009-08-09T19:38:24Z")
**Diogenes** – for that matter – do you not believe in ANY war of defense? Should NOTHING have been done to get rid of Hitler, for example? Should the US not have aided in getting rid of such a monster? Should one just lay down and allow the enemy to take you down, and not defend yourself – because innocents might be harmed? (And to argue that the Japanese were no threat is laughable. Do you know they had concentration camps just like the Nazis? Their medical experiments were equal to anything done by Mengele – and some were worse) > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How about this. Let’s set aside the issue of killing children and change it to rape. Would you be willing to rape a baby to save a thousand lives? If you really want to me to contrive a scenario, I can do it, but just taking it at face value, isn’t it less bad to rape a baby than to kill one? If you’re willing to kill that baby, then you should have no problem with raping it. > > Does that sound too out there? Well how about this. You can save 10,000 soldiers, and all you have to do is pour gasoline on a four year old and set him on fire. That’s not out there at all. That’s what inceniary weapons do, they set little kids on fire. If you’re willing to do it from long range, you should have no problem doing it by hand. > > the problem is that people don’t really, truly think through the horror of what they say they’re willing to do whn it’s a long distance hypothetical. Except it isn’t long distnace or hypothetical for the families you’re willing to hurt. Please see my signature. I’m breaking the one “once per thread” rule because I think it’s extremely relevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766.md?page=5)