# Killing Hitler's Wife and Children **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766 "2009-08-08T20:15:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/81 "2009-08-09T19:38:37Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > **Dio’s** incisive argument Please link to whatever other thread that’s going on in, because it sure isn’t this one. It’s just more absurd bombast because Dio doesn’t, in fact, have any actual point that can be argued rationally. It’s like a militant vegitarian demanding that everybody has to go out and kill their own animals if they’re going to eat meat. And then demanding that they raise them before slaughtering them themselves. And then that they have sex with the barnyard animals, because after all sex is less bad than killing so anybody who eats meat must be willing to be a cowfucker. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > There is really no convincing counter to his point Coincidentally, there is also no convincing counter to “Wibble wibble hopskotch katang!” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/82 "2009-08-09T19:49:24Z")
Can someone explain why my hypotheticals are not valid? They are not strawmen. Some of you just know you can’t answer them. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/83 "2009-08-09T20:11:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Can someone explain why my hypotheticals are not valid? They are not strawmen. Some of you just know you can’t answer them. There’s not valid because they rely on the question “Would you do X to achieve Y” when X cannot realistically achieve Y. Even if some warlord claims that his army will spare 10,000 soldiers if you set that kid on fire, there’s no sane reason to believe someone who sees the immolation of four year olds as a _goal_ won’t just kill everyone anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/84 "2009-08-09T20:32:36Z")
That’s just running away from the hypothetical, not addressing it. Let’s make it easier and more plausible. Osama bin Laden is hiding in a school which contains your own children. Do you blow up the school (and your own children) to get ObS? Yes or No. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/85 "2009-08-09T20:39:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Osama bin Laden is hiding in a school which contains your own children. Do you blow up the school (and your own children) to get ObS? Yes or No. No, for the same reason you don’t break an entire box of eggs when you want an omlette. In the situation you’ve described you can kill Osama without blowing up the school. Here’s a better one: if he was using my child as a human shield, I’d rather that the police or military kill or capture Osama while risking my child’s life than to let Osama escape indefinitely by letting him hide behind hostages with no chance of retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/86 "2009-08-09T21:06:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Then we didn’t have to invade Japan either. We didn’t have to keep fighting Japan at all. We could have just gone home. Japan was no threat to us. I assume none of your fathers or grandfathers were in the Bataan Death March or Pearl Harbor or the Rape of Nanking? Look I’m a second generation Korean-American and I know what my grandsires faced under Japanese rule and I am glad Japan was crushed in the war with minimal American bloodshed. Also you seem to obssessed with asking hypotheticals rather then actual points. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/87 "2009-08-09T22:18:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Any justification you want to contrive for killing children would apply equally to your own children. There is nothing ridiculous or invalid about that point. You eitrher have to admit you’d be willing to kill your own children under the same circumstances, or admit that your justifications are bullshit. You can’t make arbitrary moral loopholes for yourself. Dio, you think you are making a point about whether an action is moral or not, but in reality you are just showing the ridiculousness inherent in the inquiry. That is, people (and countries) choose to do X or not do X based on their determination of the risks and rewards of doing or not doing X. Whether X is moral or immoral is completely meaningless. Note that the possible reactions of other people, some of whom may regard X as immoral, is just one concern that goes into determining whether doing or not doing X is the best course of action. Also, on the specific subject of Japan, my take is that they got off easy. They attacked American soil. Anything short of complete annihilation is a gift to them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/88 "2009-08-09T22:22:39Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > “except in extreme circumstances” ? > > I’m shocked I’ll tell you to read that. > > Are you speaking for all countries or just the US ? All countries, naturally!!! (And yes, WWII was indeed, an appropriate use. As I think I stated previously, my only regret was that old Schicklegruber was already dead when we dropped it.) ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/89 "2009-08-09T23:41:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s just running away from the hypothetical, not addressing it. > > Let’s make it easier and more plausible. > > Osama bin Laden is hiding in a school which contains your own children. Do you blow up the school (and your own children) to get ObS? Yes or No. No. If they were other people’s children, then I would think about the practical ramifications of killing them, and if I were OK with the practical ramifications, then I would have no problem blowing up the school. The fact that you think that blowing up the school is immoral would have absolutely zero sway in my decision. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/90 "2009-08-10T03:43:35Z")
The problem with Dio is not that he ever fails to raise a good point. It’s that he fundamentally bargains (or argues, here) in bad faith. Everything is all evil. He wants to live in a perfect world, but he isn’t willing to actually fight or work to build one or defend one. He isn’t even willing to work or fight in defense of what is good, and when the enemies of what is good create situations where the god must fight, and do harm, he gets to call them evil because of it. Some people might call Dio an Atheist because he doesn’t believe in God in anything. I call him a Diabolist, because he insists on only seeing the Devil in everything. He hates, and he hates completely any and all good things. He only seems to like or defend some things because they strike at things he hates more. It used to be the case that people who could not deal with a world of violence, sex, and frequent chaos retired to become monks. Sadly, today they retire to write obnoxious posts on message boards. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/91 "2009-08-10T08:05:16Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Also, on the specific subject of Japan, my take is that they got off easy. They attacked American soil. Anything short of complete annihilation is a gift to them. Out of interest, are us Brits too gifted by your generous not-genocide? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/92 "2009-08-10T13:03:10Z")
**smiling bandit** , your remarks have no relevance to this thread. Take it to the **BBQ Pit** or drop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/93 "2009-08-10T13:13:14Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > > > Also, on the specific subject of Japan, my take is that they got off easy. They attacked American soil. Anything short of complete annihilation is a gift to them. > > Out of interest, are us Brits too gifted by your generous not-genocide? Just leave it alone. Only the fact that, judging by his posting history, he actually believes this sort of nonsense defends him from a charge of trolling and we don’t need to hijack this thread, further, by pursuing his deliberately provocative comments. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/94 "2009-08-10T13:26:28Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I am with you on the “never-ever-kill-a-child-period” in spirit, but I must ask; were the children in this case killed\* intentionally?\* Were their deaths an objective of the mission? If you fire a missile into a family home you fully intend to kill everyone in it. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/95 "2009-08-10T14:06:55Z")
I thought of a slightly different way of looking at this: Within the US there are constitutional protection, which can end up helping criminals (think Miranda rights, guys going free because of a botched search procedure). But as a general rule, we don’t violate the constitution to bring someone to justice. In the end, we have to suck it up and look for new ways to prosecute. Otherwise, what’s the point of having a constitution that prevents unlawful search, if we turn it off for someone that we’re sure is guilty? To do so would turn us into criminals in the process. The old scenario of “bin Laden is hiding in a McDonalds with your kids,” has already been used in this thread and I think it highlights the confusion we face. Imagine the PR nightmare after a Waco-style storming of a McDonalds. “Local cops order an airstrike of a McDonalds where two gunmen were holed up, 36 dead, news at 11” I have a feeling that the answer to my question has to do with the ability for local law enforcement to work, since we can’t exactly send in FBI agents to nab a terrorist in Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/96 "2009-08-10T14:37:03Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > So does it all come down to Mens rea? > > Start then, we with the premise that the murder is NOT morally neutral, he is bad, he his morally negative. How then, do we kill him while remaining morally positive? > > We went into Afghanistan because of the attacks on 9/11, in which approximately 3000 civilians were slaughtered. But then what happens after we’re responsible for 3000 civilian deaths in Afghanistan? > > I remember during the last Israeli war against Gaza, trying to explain why it was okay for Israel to kill civilians while targeting militants, but not okay for militants to kill civilians while targeting civilians. > > The answer always came back, “it’s not okay to target civilians.” > > So would it have been okay if the militants were targeting something else and then just missing really bad? > > Sad another, and more inflammatory way, what if bin Laden said, “oops, I was trying to hit a military base, my bad.” How do you kill a murderer while remaining morally neutral? I don’t get the logic. The murderer killed an innocent person. You’re killing a guilty one. It’s not the same thing. If Obama said he was trying to hit a military base I guess it would be a little better. Still a cause for war though. But he didn’t say that and didn’t do that, and that’s partly the point. I don’t get the logic that if we kill civilians accidentally (but unavoidably) we are as guilty as people who deliberatly kill civilians. If the police storm a building and kill 10 hostage takers and 5 hostages die from police bullets inadvertantly (but 50 live)…should the police be prosecuted for murder? What does it matter to those 5 whose bullets killed them? I think that argument is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Redwing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dfb087/32.png) [@Redwing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redwing)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/97 "2009-08-10T14:47:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > All innocence is equal. And non-existent, and also irrelevant. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think it’s a bogus distinction anyway. If you know an action will kill civilians, then you’re targeting civilians. No. If an action may hurt civilian, but will hurt my enemy’s ability to wage war then it is targeting that ability. A civilian working in a munitions factory is as dangerous as the guy firing the products he manufactures. A girl visiting her father at his workplace wasn’t targeted, but she’s just as dead. It is not something to be happy about, but it is also not something any more horrible than any other normal action in a war. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Then we didn’t have to invade Japan either. We didn’t have to keep fighting Japan at all. We could have just gone home. Japan was no threat to us. No, we could not. We had committed ourselves to breaking the structure that allowed Japan to attack a nation it was not at war with. War is political in nature, if we do not achieve the political we set out with, then we have lost the war. If someone takes a swing at you with a knife, would you let him get his breath back after you punched him in the solar-plexus, or would keep hitting him until he dropped the knife? If he keeps hold of that knife while you break half the bones in his body, it is not your fault you could not figure out how to make him drop it. If, after making him drop the knife you pay his hospital bill, educate his children, and protect him and them from a thug that had recently been on your side, well, then hopefully you will get along after that. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Can someone explain why my hypotheticals are not valid? They are not strawmen. Some of you just know you can’t answer them. They are strawmen because you claim to value all life equally. My life is more important to me than yours, yours is more important to me than someone in Canada or England, their lives are more important to me than the life of a family member of some terrorist. While you may order the list after the first item differently than I do, the first item is still the same (removing for the sake of discussion any family members of yours or mine that we may value higher than we value ourselves). The value to me of the lives of American soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen are worth more than lives of the family of someone who wants to kill Americans. It is fairly simple, really: I am an American, I have been a serviceman, and many people I know still are. I have never wanted to kill anyone, and I would be overjoyed if there was a way to rid the world of war. If it gives you some idea of where I am coming from, I do not see things in terms of good and evil, right and wrong, or just and un-just. I see them in terms of rulesets, and us versus them. The ruleset we have decided we will play by is the Geneva Conventions, and we (usually) follow it even when our enemy does not. By those rules, if I bomb a training base and kill 5,000 18-22 year olds, I’m fine, if, however, I bomb a university and kill 5,000 18-22 year olds I’m not. Assuming these locations are close to each other, the odds are good that I could many of the same people in either location. Assuming, for the sake of discussion that either case kills exactly 50% military and 50% civilian personnel, do you draw a distinction between the two actions? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/98 "2009-08-10T14:56:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Just leave it alone. Only the fact that, judging by his posting history, he actually believes this sort of nonsense defends him from a charge of trolling and we don’t need to hijack this thread, further, by pursuing his deliberately provocative comments. > > [/Modding] Apologies, to you and everyone else in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/99 "2009-08-10T16:16:15Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > I don’t get the logic that if we kill civilians accidentally (but unavoidably) we are as guilty as people who deliberatly kill civilians. If the police storm a building and kill 10 hostage takers and 5 hostages die from police bullets inadvertantly (but 50 live)…should the police be prosecuted for murder? What does it matter to those 5 whose bullets killed them? I think that argument is stupid. I think the “hostage scenario” is rather easy to use, but what if the civilians are NOT hostages. What if the ciriminals in are an apartment building and the police kill the neighbours with stray bullets? Or kill family members in the process? I have a hard time believing that you couldn’t call for an inquiry in their actions, and that you wouldn’t be outraged if police action resulted in civilian deaths. Heck, we already have significant outrage when police kill a suspected criminal. It’s all well and good to blame the criminal, “well, he shouldn’t have been at home with his children.” But does that absolve us of our responsibility? Was it Gangus Kahn that said, “if someone in the village is guilt, kill the village”? Is that the moral frame work we’re working with here? It seems your argument is, “if the person is REALLY guilty, and the people are sufficiantly different, bomb away.” ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766/100 "2009-08-10T16:19:52Z")
> [@Redwing](#): > > They are strawmen because you claim to value all life equally. My life is more important to me than yours, yours is more important to me than someone in Canada or England, their lives are more important to me than the life of a family member of some terrorist. While you may order the list after the first item differently than I do, the first item is still the same (removing for the sake of discussion any family members of yours or mine that we may value higher than we value ourselves). And this is the mentality that sickens me the most. “American life is more important than that of a foreigner half way around the world.” To me, it’s that mentality that allows us to so callusly go to war, when we know full well the potential for civilian death. Try running the Iraq war scenario when an American life is lost ofr each Iraqi. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-hitlers-wife-and-children/505766.md?page=6)