# "Killing Israelis is OK; calling the killers names is an atrocity," says the Guardian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075 "2002-08-15T19:52:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/1 "2002-08-15T19:52:31Z")
I receive e-mails from an organization called Honest Reporting, which address anti-Israel media bias. A paragraph from an [article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4479883,00.html) by Suzanne Goldenberg in the Guardian is as bad as any I’ve seen. This paragraph makes me want to throw up: > [@](#): > > Since arriving in Jerusalem in February 2000, seven months before the eruption of the Palestinian uprising, I have lost count of the times I have heard Israelis describe Palestinians as animals, savage beasts intent on inflicting terror. Only Israelis rarely use the word Palestinian - their neighbours are much more commonly described as Arabs, part of that collection of more than 20 countries most have never seen. “Only an animal could do something like this,” said a young woman at the illegal Jewish settlement of Emmanuel the day after Palestinian militants killed nine people in an ambush. “Not even animals kill just for the fun of it, like they do.” Uh, **Ms Goldenberg** , these particular killers _are_ intent on inflicting terror. That’s why they waited in ambush and killed 9 civilians. (Incidentally, the settlements _aren’t illegal_, but that’s the least of my complaints.) BTW…If you want to subscribe to HonestReporting, use their form at: [http://www.honestreporting.com/a/subscribe.asp](http://www.honestreporting.com/a/subscribe.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/2 "2002-08-15T20:23:25Z")
Geezus **December** get off my side. Read the very next gawddamned _sentence_ from the one you quoted. > [@](#): > > Waves of suicide bombings by Palestinian militants have done much to feed that impression, enabling Israelis to deny the Palestinian humanity. She’s saying that in the face of the onslaught of Palestinian terrorism, Israelis are changing for the worse. Gee…y’think?! Frankly I thought it was a thoughtful article with just a hint of bias\* and to her credit she didn’t flinch from or try to cover up the fact that the many Palestinians think that homicide bombings are just fine and that they don’t distinguish between soldiers and civilians. If you think this is seriously biased, you need to get some perspective. Fenris, as pro-Israel as they come, but not insane \*The term is “terrorist” not “militant” ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/3 "2002-08-15T20:28:16Z")
Nowhere, of course, in the linked article, does Ms. Goldenberg (!), state that “killing Israelis is OK,” **or** that “calling the killers names is an atrocity.” In fact, the _very next paragraph_ states: > [@](#): > > Waves of suicide bombings by Palestinian militants have done much to feed that impression, enabling Israelis to deny the Palestinian humanity. So has the footage from the West Bank and Gaza shown on Israeli television: the beaming children waving their hands in the air for the cameras in celebration of a suicide attack, the ritual of martyrs’ funerals, with masked men bristling with weaponry firing guns in the air as a final send-off. She then goes on to say (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > **It is, of course, also true that many, many Palestinians are unwilling to admit the humanity of Israelis.** The other week, I watched the funeral of 15 Palestinians - including nine children and three women - who were killed when Israel dropped a one- tonne bomb on one of the most crowded neighbourhoods of Gaza City to assassinate the man who was arguably one of its most dangerous enemies - the founder and military commander of Hamas. > > Tens of thousands of Palestinians coursed down Gaza’s main street, furious and vengeful. Munira Shurab, a middle-class housewife, watched them pass from her balcony. “The hate in my heart now is too big to describe to you. I never thought I was capable of hating so much but, day after day, the anger increases,” she says. And she also observes: > [@](#): > > At the heart of these arguments is the belief of many that in this nasty war for a state, the Palestinians can afford no distinction between civilian and soldier. “There are no civilians in Israel. All the Israelis are military, all of them,” says Amjad Shurab. “They are all military and they all have weapons and guns, and the moment they are called up they are going to be using their weapons against me.” > > No women, no children, no ordinary people just struggling to survive an intolerable situation. Only massed ranks of soldiers, not quite human. It’s a reasoning I have encountered dozens of times among Palestinians. If you claim that that article paints the Palestinians in a positive light, you have gone way beyond dishonesty. You are, quite simply, a liar and a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/4 "2002-08-15T20:32:17Z")
I’d say that’s pretty sad, **december**. That is: taking a thoughtful piece decrying the loss of humanity and perspective on both sides, excerpting a single paragraph out of context, then making a claim in your header not supported by the story is really, really sad. You can no longer claim anything but a one-sided, totally blinkered view of the world–and you had initially, months ago, seemed to display some intelligence and perspective, yourself. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/5 "2002-08-15T20:36:02Z")
And I’m sure that Suzanne Goldenberg is really an alias for Fatima Rashid. Certainly, no one with Jewish connections could have written that slanted piece. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/6 "2002-08-15T21:16:42Z")
**December** If you had any credibilty you have lost it all. I have never accepted that all the things carried out by my government in my name are good and correct. We in the UK have had to deal with terrorism on a scale that Americans have only just started to truly understand, even so, there are many things that my governemts has done both in making major mistakes and deliberate actions that would shame me. I have an intense dislike for the kind of bastards that would carry out some of the atrocities that the Irish terrorosts have done, but I’m also not too stupid to understand some of the circumstances that created those sort of individuals. I also know that it may be to my distaste that we as a nation make deals with murderers who have in the past been prepared to carry out indescriminate acts of barberosity, but I alos know that we have to address the reasons why those individuals did what they did, we have to talk and reason with them, and they have to understand our genuine concern for thiers and our welfare, and it must be sincere. You are completely uncritical of what Israel does, you offer no hope, no solutions, just a morally bankrupt policy of killing, revenge, dispossesion, oppression with nary any concern that people, Palestinians and Israelis are suffering from the brutalising effects of the current situation. Oh yes you can point out the guilty party, observing who started what, who pushed whom, just like a bunch of playground children, but this does not work, it is childish, irrelevant, non-constructive. I would like to see if you have any criticisms of any sort about Israel, do you? do you have the capacity to look at those whom you support and find fault, if so then please post it here, I would like to see if you have the ability to make judgement valuations from your own self. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/7 "2002-08-15T21:25:39Z")
DECEMBER – My _God_, you’re a one-note song. I’m with FENRIS – stop helping the conservatives! You’ve done enough! Really! Don’t you want to go be a liberal for a while? Please? ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/8 "2002-08-15T21:32:48Z")
I came across [http://www.honestreporting.com/](http://www.honestreporting.com/) a couple of weeks ago having inputted _‘Wall Street Journal’ + bias_ into Google (the link commended the WSP for it’s reporting of the MidEast). It became immediately apparent this org fuels most of **december’s** OP’s. Was a time I thought of pre-empting his OP’s in parody style but parody seems to be _soooo_ passe nowadays… Still, if you want to know what his next topic will be (Lord knows why), you now know where to look. **december** - this one seems particularly close to the trollish boundary. You’re not losing it, per chance ? ps. How about cutting back on the vibrant colours that seem to be creeping into your GD post’s…they’re mad enough without the avant garde splashes. And what’s happened to the poetry ? - suffering an extended writers block ?? London ‘Fingers crossed’ Calling ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/9 "2002-08-15T21:38:42Z")
**Fenris, Jodi** - as a representative of the liberal but not a lunatic coalition, please be advised that any such gifts as the one you’re attempting to make will be responded to in kind. Think about it. Do you **really** want to make that trade?? _Hmmmm_? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/10 "2002-08-15T21:52:58Z")
I say chuck **december** to the Freepers. He just keeps getting worse. :mad: No WONDER it’s taking longer than we thought. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/11 "2002-08-15T21:55:14Z")
I dunno **wring** , the tin foil might come in handy for the leftovers at the ethnic food indigenous beverage tasting parties - and that’s not easy to say with a mouthful of dal. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/12 "2002-08-15T22:15:56Z")
Gotta confess I hadn’t paid much attention to **December’s** mostly one-note pro-Israel posts until a few weeks ago, but the rising chorus of complaints here piqued my interest. Now I’ve read several recent threads that he has launched or contributed to, mostly in GD. **December’s** contributions mostly seem to start off the same, with a quote that apparently shows clear media/government bias against Israel or in favor of the Palestinians; within two or three replies someone references the original document from which the quote was taken and shows that the quote was taken completely out of context, or was used in support of an argument that the quotee never intended. The first post in this thread is a perfect example of his technique. My question is, considering the ease with which these specious opening arguments are countered by other posters, why bother opening these threads in the first place? My take is that he is posting disinformation more or less for his own amusement. I mean, his wasting of everyone’s time doesn’t make any sense otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/13 "2002-08-15T22:38:40Z")
This is not an epiplexis, it is simply an outright misrepresentation of the Guardian article. When I saw the ‘quote’ I knew this thread was trouble. The article makes a good point. I have heard the Mayor of Jerusalem say on television, paraphrasing, “No normal human would allow their child to become a suicide bomber.” Both sides dehumanize the other, it makes it easier to kill over and over. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/14 "2002-08-15T22:57:54Z")
December, misrepresenting the media in order to make them look like anti-Semites? Why, I never! **December** , maybe it’s time for you to take a hint or two. If you keep this sort of behaviour up, you may not be a posting member of this board forever. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/15 "2002-08-15T23:03:10Z")
Well, we _do_ need December here to counteract the pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel posters, who are more numerous (and no, I can’t name them, as I am too busy rolling my eyes and scrolling hurriedly into another forum to remember who they are). “No normal human would allow their child to become a suicide bomber.” —I don’t wholeheartedly approve of how Israel is handling the Palestinian suicide bombers; but how can you argue with this statement? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/16 "2002-08-15T23:09:08Z")
One does not fight ignorance with stupidity, **Eve**. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/17 "2002-08-15T23:18:31Z")
Well, we should cut **december** _some_ slack: for the first time in a dozen or so threads he picked the correct Forum. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/18 "2002-08-15T23:26:58Z")
I give up. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/19 "2002-08-15T23:35:52Z")
**London** - gee - I _did_ forget about that tin foil… hmmm. ::gazing over at the liberal **and** fucking lunatic fringe:: Nope, I think we’ve got that covered. Covered that is. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/20 "2002-08-16T00:15:17Z")
::Inside Mossad HQ:: Sir, agent **december** is managing to flush out more of the Palestinian-terrorist supporting filth. We’ll have surveillance teams on them within 48 hours. Good… But this one called **Coldfire**. Send a snatch team to Holland immediately - He’s getting too close… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075.md?page=2)