# "Killing Israelis is OK; calling the killers names is an atrocity," says the Guardian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075 "2002-08-15T19:52:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/41 "2002-08-16T13:15:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > the _Guardian_ was cited as editorializing that the Jenin (non)-massacre was “every bit as repellent” as the 9/11 attacks. Now _that_ is a sickening piece of bias. One newspaper criticising another newspapers reporting – can’t wait for teevee news to kick in. Got a cite for the Guardian editorial itself ? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/42 "2002-08-16T13:33:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **There is no child suicide bomber (unless we count the adult suicide bombers with parents) and there hasn’t been a child suicide bomber. The inference is that there is/has been such a child because of the “…no parent would allow…” comment by the mayor.** I’m not sure that I completely agree with your interpretation, or that that is the inference that is supposed to be drawn. There have been many items in the news following suicide bombings in which the family, quite often the mothers, discuss how proud they are that their child was chosen to be a martyr. There have also been parents of young children stating that they hope their own young ones grow up to be martyrs as well. I interpreted the “no normal human being” statement to refer to the culture of death that these children are growing up in. Rather than aspiring for their children to grow up and become doctors or lawyers or businessmen, living in a free Palestine, they aspire for them to detonate a bomb strapped to their body amongst as many civilian Jews as they can find. That is, admittedly, pretty sick. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/43 "2002-08-16T13:50:48Z")
For the record, here’s that [Guardian leader](http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,685537,00.html) (which at no point refers to what happened as a “massacre”): > [@](#): > > **The battle for the truth** > What really happened in Jenin camp? > > Jenin camp looks like the scene of a crime. Its concrete rubble and tortured metal evokes another horror half a world away in New York, smaller in scale but every bit as repellent in its particulars, no less distressing, and every bit as man-made. Not quite as wrong as **Jackmanii** suggests, though still overly emotive. Though it does go on to say: > [@](#): > > Yet while Mr Sharon’s talent for wanton destruction has once again proved deeply counter-productive, is he also guilty, as the Palestinians claim, of a heinous and exceptional crime? In short, what really happened inside Jenin? > > The world needs to know. To that end, Jenin must be treated like a crime scene, investigated without delay, before the evidence disappears or is destroyed. The UN human rights commission has ordered an inquiry led by Mary Robinson. Israel and the Palestinians should cooperate fully - and even if they cannot agree a general ceasefire, in Jenin at least the truce must hold. And 4 days later the Sunday edition (the Observer) [said](http://www.observer.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,687958,00.html) > [@](#): > > **Brutal, yes. Massacre, no** I wonder if the NYT reported that, too… ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/44 "2002-08-16T14:07:40Z")
**pldennison** - I guess we interpret these kinds of statements differently. For me, _if_ the statement by the Mayor was made in the immediate aftermath of the child-dressed-as-a-bomber- photo revelation, then it holds a different connotation than if same was made without the implicit linkage (ie. earlier or some time after). I’d also tend (generally speaking) to the view that the opinions of the parents of adult suicide bombers expressed in the aftermath of the death of their son or daughter aren’t helpful – their child has just blown themselves up into thousands of pieces and took a bunch of others with him. Rational, no. In denial and much more besides, presumably yep. IMHO. They may be hardened militants…I don’t know but they must surely be grieving. As for mothers expressing their wishes that their child will grow up to do same – no friggin idea. I assume it’s part of the polarisation and dehumanisation endemic in the region and spoken about in the OP’s linked article. To think that it could be rational is way, way beyond my life experience, or anything I’d care to consider at this point… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/45 "2002-08-16T14:33:22Z")
I think the \* Guardian\* went beyond “overly emotive”. **jjimm**. After calling what happened in Jenin “every bit as repellent in its particulars” and “no less distressing” than 9/11 (extremely offensive to both Israelis and Americans, undocumented, and ultimately shown to be unfounded), the _Guardian_ goes on to say: “Jenin feels like a crime. No sentient person can sift this evidence of broken lives and homes; witness the dry-eyed children, their minds shocked and twisted beyond words; look upon the detritus of a frugal, refugee existence - tin plates in a kitchen sink, cheap bathroom tiles, abandoned sleeping mats - turned into ownerless rubbish by bullets, bulldozers and rockets; and not demand an urgent reckoning. Jenin already has that aura of infamy that attaches to a crime of especial notoriety.” The _Guardian_, not withstanding the subsequent call for investigation, had obviously already made up its mind as to what happened. I submit that that was a low point in British Middle East journalism, though far from the only one. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/46 "2002-08-16T14:39:33Z")
How about a [14-year-old suicide bomber](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,335996,00.html)? > [@](#): > > Two days before, Haitham had left his home in Sheik Radwan, a neighborhood of Gaza City in which the Islamist militants of Hamas reign, and walked with his friends along the beach. When they reached the edge of the city, near the three Israeli settlements at the north of the Gaza Strip, Haitham produced a knife and a small pipe bomb from his pockets. “I invite you to join me in martyrdom,” he told his companions. His friends declined and watched him continue. He was shot by an Israeli soldier guarding the settlement of Dugit. It is a testament to the popularity of efforts such as Haitham’s that 6,000 people came to the funeral of an otherwise unknown boy to celebrate the 14-year-old as a hero. Though in this case, it does sound like the emphasis is rather more on “suicide” than “bomber.” ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/47 "2002-08-16T15:35:09Z")
As always, I appreciate your responses, naive though they be. I suspect that few, if any, of you have spent time in Israel or in the West Bank. Ms. Goldenberg’s article contains a combination of arrogance, ignorance, bias, and stupidity. Frankly, the article is so bad, I cannot do justice to all that’s wrong. I shall do my best. **pldennison** pointed out that the name of the thread was overblown, and I admit it. However, I the title was roughly accurate: The article did spend an entire paragraph pointing out that Israelis call Palestinian bombers “animals.” The attitude of the Israelis toward the Palestinians was one of the author’s central points. OTOH the article does _not_ criticze Palestinian terrorism _from a moral POV_. It deplores the _impact_ of the attacks – “they have done much to feed that impression [that Palestinians behave inhumanly]”. The article also sort-of justifies the attacks, claiming (incorrectly) that certain murdered Israelis were living in “illegal” settlements, and by including the quote, “I look at the intifada like a prison revolt.” Over and over the article claims to find a parallel between the hatred of Israelis for Palestinians, and vice versa. If you had been in Israel ten years ago, as I was, you would have seen hatred expressed by Palestinans, but not by Israelis. Worry, yes; hatred, no. In reality, the Arabs have been promoting hatred for years. Iraq has a powerful TV station that’s available throughout Israel. It just spews out hatred. The Arafat government has promoted hatred. I’m sure you posters are not anti-semitic, but anti-semitism is rife among the Arabs. It’s regrettable that Arab anti-semitism gets less media coverage than it deserves. While Arab government promoted hatred of Israel and of Jews, Israel has accepted Arabs and Muslims as full citizens. Israel has also provided many benefits to non-citizen Palestinians. **Israel has done a hell of a lot more for the Palestinians than any Arab nation has.** The Palestinian Authority and most other Arab regimes are brutal dictatorships. Their leaders promote hatred of Israel. (Despots find it useful to have scapegoats.) Ararfat called an intifada when he was offered a Palestinian State. Palestinians have been terrorizing Israeli citizens for two years. Now that Israelis have reacted to unproked mass murder with bad feelings, the author has _found a parallel_. \* She seems to say: _Israelis now hate Palestinians. They’re both the same. Of course, I’m on a higher moral plane than either of them._ I will add one specific example: > [@](#): > > And so none of the Israelis I spoke to were as struck as I was at the photographs that have begun appearing in Israeli newspapers since the army reoccupied the West Bank in June. The first searing image appeared at the beginning of July: a grinning Israeli soldier looming over two Palestinian captives, kneeling in their underpants before a cache of seized weapons. Their hands were bound behind their backs, and they were blindfolded. Once fearsome Palestinian terrorists turned into human trophies of war. The photographs reminded me of the pictures taken by British souvenir hunters more than 150 years ago, after the crushing of a rebellion by Indian soldiers against the East India Company in a whirlwind of massacres and sieges in 1858. Once fearsome opponents turned into human trophies of war. Let’s see. Palestinians are carrying suicide bombs to maim and murder civilians. Israeli soldiers have captured some terrorists and taken their weapons. The Israelis are smiling. They should be. They prevented anther Passover massacre or Hebrew University atrocity, and they did so by capturing, rather than killing, the perps. But, Ms Goldenberg isn’t happy that these murderers were apprehended before they could kill innocent women and children. Not at all. What she finds “searing” about the situation is that these killers was: _“their hands were bound behind their backs,” “they were blindfolded,”_ an Israeli soldier was _“grinning”_ and he _“loomed”_ over them. The important thing to Ms. Goldenberg is that that photo reminds her something that happened somewhere else 150 years ago. Although her parallel shows how knowledgable and compassionate she thinks she is, she did not even notice that these Palestinians intended to commit mayhem against Israeli civilians. They would have done so, had they not been captured. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/48 "2002-08-16T15:41:15Z")
Without delving into the rights or wrongs of the situation, one would have to have a heart of stone with blinders to match not to acknowledge that there has been extraoridinary suffering on both sides. Every Palestinian and every Israeli has lost friends and family to terror; both sides hate and fear the other’s capacity for violence. A Palestinian mother weeps for her dead son just as much as an Israeli mother weeps for hers. I think that’s something that **December** doesn’t comprehend. When the Palestinians celebrate a suicide bomber becoming a _shahid_, they’re not inhuman monsters; they are rejoicing in a blow struck against the hated other, and that their son has gone to Paradise, which is better than living in a futile, hopeless cesspit. It horoughly disagree with the Palestinian leadership and have little sympathy for their political plight, which is largely self-inflicted, but at the same time, I try not to lose sight of the reality that real people, real families are suffering needlessly because of the stupidity and shortsightedness of their governments. Just because Israel is fighting a corrupt. thuggish government does not excuse allowing Palestinian children to live in filth and be malnourished. Just because the Palestinians see Israelis as an evil occupier does nto excuse causing Israeli children to fear they will die leaving the house. Hate, rage, fear: these aren’t inhuman. To the contrary, they are intensely human reactions to this situation. Full disclosure: I am extremely pro-Israel, and seeing the Palestinians dance on 9/11 still affects me. I try to stay out of these threads because having **december** on one’s side, making inane, irrelevant, and ridiculously one-sided arguments is a sure way to get one’s viewpoint tainted by association. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/49 "2002-08-16T15:42:01Z")
Must resist urge to abuse rolleyes smiley . . . ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/50 "2002-08-16T15:46:30Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > **pldennison pointed out that the name of the thread was overblown, and I admit it.** Admit that you (constantly) do this to cause a shit-storm. This isn’t the first time, and you know it. As for the rest of your arguments, buried beneath piles of your one-sided, feeble-minded inability to see any faults in those subjects which you hold dear, you have a couple of good points. A shame that few are going to bother arguing them due to your inflammatory behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/51 "2002-08-16T15:59:39Z")
> [@](#): > > As always, I appreciate your responses, naive though they be. I suspect that few, if any, of you have spent time in Israel or in the West Bank. And how long have you spent over there? gobear: Thank you for a reasoned even response to this topic, even if it is the pit 😉 Just one question. how did you feel about the images of palestinian men, women and children holding a vigil the next day for the victims of 9/11? I certainly remember both incidents, and were sickened by the dancing ones, and heartened by the vigil pictures. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/52 "2002-08-16T16:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > As always, I appreciate your responses, naive though they be. I suspect that few, if any, of you have spent time in Israel or in the West Bank. Dude, you live in _New Jersey_! Don’t be holding youirself out as some expert, especially when you have been told off before by Dopers who actually live in Israel! > [@](#): > > OTOH the article does not criticze Palestinian terrorism from a moral POV. Well, of course not, you idiot. This is supposed to be reportage, not advocacy. Did you even read the article? It’s about the desensitizing effect of violence on both sides. > [@](#): > > Increasingly, Israelis are resistant to hearing or seeing anything that challenges their version of events, a nationally adopted cant that basically says: “We are the victims, they are terrorists and the whole world is against us.” > > Palestinians, naturally, see themselves as universal victims as well. The competition for victimhood reached its apogee a few days after September 11, when Palestinians and Israelis held candelight memorials with astoundingly similar placards: “We know how you feel, we are victims of terrorism too.” And yes, the article is critical of the Palestinian moral position > [@](#): > > In recent weeks, a few Palestinian intellectuals have spoken out against the cult of bombers, recognising that suicide attacks are destroying their own society from within - and its image from without - at the same time as they are rendering it near impossible for activists inside Israel to mobilise greater publics in support of peace. But even these petitions and advertisements against suicide bombings are not voiced in moral terms. And they have not explicitly condemned suicide bombings - it would be seen as too confrontational - but cocooned their criticism in the phrase “attacks against civilians in Israel”. Learn to fucking read for comprehension, you mook. The anti-Jewish bias of Arab governments has nothing to do with this article. You seem to think that anything short of an unabashed pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian screed is “biased.” Being evenhanded in one’s reporting is not fucking biased! ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/53 "2002-08-16T16:12:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Just one question. how did you feel about the images of palestinian men, women and children holding a vigil the next day for the victims of 9/11? I certainly remember both incidents, and were sickened by the dancing ones, and heartened by the vigil pictures. I never saw any vigil picures, but hearing that some Palestinians cared about the 9/11 victims is heartening indeed is definitely heartening. Just don’t think I’ve gone soft on you. I’m still no fan of Islam (or any religion), and I reserve the right to criticize (or praise) as the situation warrants. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/54 "2002-08-16T16:20:20Z")
From the reports on the news it seemed that the “celebrations” were because they had heard that someone had stuck it to the Americans so to speak, but when they actually saw the events and so many innocents dying the mood changed. No cite, just memory of looking at the news on ~12th Sept. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/55 "2002-08-16T16:30:03Z")
I think it interesting that you use “palestinians” for one case and “some palestinians” for the other. But, its probably the closest I’ll get you to agree with me on teh matter 😉 I never thought you had gone soft, I just think you are capable of good debate, and just because “its the pit” dosent mean that good debate has to be abandoned. december: You are a ninny. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/56 "2002-08-16T16:30:41Z")
Well, they did also hold massive street celebrations following the bombing at Hebrew U. I don’t think it’s questionable that there are some seriously misplaced priorities in the culture. Still, that doesn’t excuse december’s disgusting misrepresentation of the article. Those of us in the news and media business recognize objective reporting when we see it. But december doesn’t want objectivity; he wants nothing but pro-Israel reporting. And don’t whip out “more pro-Israel than thou” on anybody here, december. Up until 5 years ago, my cousin Eric (a rabbi, as it happens), his wife and two daughters _lived_ in Jerusalem. And my boss is in Israel nearly every year. In fact, he built a school there two years ago. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/57 "2002-08-16T16:43:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it interesting that you use “palestinians” for one case and “some palestinians” for the other. But, it’s probably the closest I’ll get you to agree with me on the matter. Well, the celebrations were so widespread that Arafat had to tell his people to knock it off for fear of the backlash from the American public. I suspect, though I have no evidence, that the number of celebrants was larger than the number of mourners. But, in the interests of objectivity, I can go along with “some Palestinians” in both cases. And I think you are capable of good debate, too. [quote] ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/58 "2002-08-16T16:43:19Z")
> [@](#): > > **gobear** A Palestinian mother weeps for her dead son just as much as an Israeli mother weeps for hers. You are so right, **gobear**. One reason I found the article so repulsive is that the author didn’t seem to express sympathy to any of the individuals affected – Palestinian or Israeli. What I found in the article was her admiration for her herself. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/59 "2002-08-16T16:53:20Z")
> [@](#): > > One reason I found the article so repulsive is that the author didn’t seem to express sympathy to any of the individuals affected If that was one of the reasons you found the article so repulsive, why didn’t you say so, you lying fuck? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075/60 "2002-08-16T17:01:05Z")
For the record, I posted earlier, “Ms. Goldenberg’s article contains a combination of arrogance, ignorance, bias, and stupidity. Frankly, the article is so bad, I cannot do justice to all that’s wrong.” **jjimm** , if you found out that I wasn’t just a bigot, you might have to analyze the article and think through the opints raised by my posts. That would be hard work. No wonder you’re so angry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/killing-israelis-is-ok-calling-the-killers-names-is-an-atrocity-says-the-guardian/124075.md?page=4)