# Kim Davis and the high U.S. prison incarcaration rate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320 "2015-09-08T04:23:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/41 "2015-09-08T23:58:47Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Regardless of the issue of Davis not issuing marriage licenses, there are many laws that will need to be amended in light of the Supreme Court decision. Proponents of SSM have argued such when noting that there are hundreds of laws that marriage affects. IMHO perhaps both side of the debate should have pushed for a legislative session to address such issues once SCOTUS handed down its ruling. On the contrary: this is a purple crayon law. You search for the terms “husband” and “wife” in the text of statutes, and use your purple crayon to replace them with “spouse.” You search for any references to “one man and one woman,” and you cross out the sentences they appear in. That takes care of 99% of the changes you have to make; the 1% of the remaining changes are probably discriminatory against women and should be thrown out. These changes **affect** people’s lives in multitudinous ways, but actually enacting the changes on a legislative level is trivial. A special legislative session in KY is unfortunately likely to be called only for the purpose of trying to do an end-run around the SC decision, as was tried in North Carolina (allowing magistrates to recuse themselves from performing marriages that go against their bigoted asshole religions). So I’m not convinced that a special session in KY offers any real solution to any real problem. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/42 "2015-09-09T00:05:52Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > The judge just released Kim Davis without her changing her position. She just cannot interfere with the actions of her assistants who are issuing marriage licenses. That’s it. > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/us/kim-davis-same-sex-marriage.html?_r=0) And if she follows through on her [threat](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/lawyers-vow-kim-davis-will-violate-court-order-and-halt-marriage-licenses-after-release-from-jail/) to interfere with marriage licensing she’ll be back in jail by close of business Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/43 "2015-09-09T00:37:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > And if she follows through on her [threat](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/lawyers-vow-kim-davis-will-violate-court-order-and-halt-marriage-licenses-after-release-from-jail/) to interfere with marriage licensing she’ll be back in jail by close of business Wednesday. I’m surprised that the judge released her without her acquiescing to something. If she continues this crap, and prevents her deputies from issuing SSML, I do hope she is back in the clink until the legislature does something, or she resigns, or her term is up. There is no need to put up with this bullshit. And yes, fine her her daily pay. Yes the supporters will pick it up, but it’s something. Her supporters are even more ignorant that she is. “We want the same rights as homosexuals” - you do. “Show us the law” - Um, ever heard of the Supreme Court of the United States? Apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/44 "2015-09-09T00:45:34Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Her supporters are even more ignorant that she is. “We want the same rights as homosexuals” - you do. “Show us the law” - Um, ever heard of the Supreme Court of the United States? Apparently not. Actually they have. It’s the group of unelected judges they ignore when things don’t go their way. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/45 "2015-09-09T01:23:50Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Actually they have. It’s the group of unelected judges they ignore when things don’t go their way. Ah. Of course. SCOTUS is appointed by the president. It will be interesting to see how that works out for them. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/46 "2015-09-09T15:56:44Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Actually they have. It’s the group of unelected judges they ignore when things don’t go their way. Your problem is not with the SCOTUS or judicial activism or even hypocrisy. Your problem is that you’re wrong in your beliefs and on the wrong side of history and you know you can’t change that except to alter your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/47 "2015-09-09T16:56:21Z")
YogSosoth, I think that running coach is just saying that this is the point of view of Kim’s supporters, not endorsing it himself. Without knowing more of his post history I think its premature to put him in their camp. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/48 "2015-09-09T18:28:14Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > **YogSosoth, I think that running coach is just saying that this is the point of view of Kim’s supporters, not endorsing it himself.** Without knowing more of his post history I think its premature to put him in their camp. This exactly. Sorry I wasn’t clear. I need to not engage in stealth sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/49 "2015-09-09T18:47:04Z")
Sorry about that, didn’t mean to target you then. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/50 "2015-09-09T18:54:16Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Sorry about that, didn’t mean to target you then. Not a problem. I’ve made the same mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/51 "2015-09-09T19:14:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > On the contrary: this is a purple crayon law. You search for the terms “husband” and “wife” in the text of statutes, and use your purple crayon to replace them with “spouse.” You search for any references to “one man and one woman,” and you cross out the sentences they appear in. That takes care of 99% of the changes you have to make; the 1% of the remaining changes are probably discriminatory against women and should be thrown out. > > These changes **affect** people’s lives in multitudinous ways, but actually enacting the changes on a legislative level is trivial. > > A special legislative session in KY is unfortunately likely to be called only for the purpose of trying to do an end-run around the SC decision, as was tried in North Carolina (allowing magistrates to recuse themselves from performing marriages that go against their bigoted asshole religions). So I’m not convinced that a special session in KY offers any real solution to any real problem. Alas opponents of SSM might continue opposition by holding to laws that discriminate against SSM until said law is specifically challenged and overruled in court\*. Better to rewrite the laws to be unambiguously compliant with the principles upon which the SCOTUS made their ruling rather than play this out as a death by a thousand cuts. Indeed it would be relatively trivial to do so. Perhaps one simple act would be sufficient to specify that the term “marriage” used anywhere in Kentucky statutes specifically includes same sex and well as opposite sex couples who are lawfully married. But rewriting laws would require the legislature to meet. To do so in special session in Kentucky would require the governor to act. He hasn’t. - And apparently even after in some cases :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/52 "2015-09-11T03:39:26Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > There can also be little dispute that America is a country quick to incarcerate people - in fact, doesn’t the United States have the most people behind bars of any country in the world; even more than China? (Someone correct me if I’m wrong.) Since your basic non-sequitur question has been answered, I’ll respond to this part: yes, I think you are wrong. There are countries with a much larger population than the United States. Both China & India have over 4 times the population, for example. So I’d think that they would have more people incarcerated then the US. (Though both of them tend to use other punishments more than incarceration, possibly because of the widespread poverty.) You may be thinking of _people incarcerated as a percentage of the population_. On that measure, the US is high, possibly the highest. 9but this depends on the accuracy of government statistics – many countries do not keep these as carefully as the US. Sometimes for political reasons. For example, North Korea has a large number of people confined in many camps. But as these are officially ‘re-education’ camps rather than prisons, those prisoners aren’t counted.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/53 "2015-09-11T04:55:09Z")
Lum, everyone in North Korea who isn’t in a high government position is a prisoner! ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/54 "2015-09-11T08:16:33Z")
If you compare apples with apples, the USA is still way out of whack when compared with other first world nations. [List of countries by incarceration rate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate#/media/File:Prisoner_population_rate_world_map.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/55 "2015-09-11T08:30:37Z")
FREEDOM! It’s laughable to listen to Americans, particularly the religious right, rattle on about how they are the the most free nation in the world, when the simple fact of the matter is that they are quite the opposite when compared to other first world nations. I’m glad that the American public is now beginning to take the problem more seriously, and look forward to when the USA eventually catches up with the first world when it comes to freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320/56 "2015-09-11T11:26:59Z")
The level of individual freedom is highest in the USA, as long as it’s the right _kind_ of individual freedom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-and-the-high-u-s-prison-incarcaration-rate/730320.md?page=2)