# Kim Davis. Is There A Pattern Emerging Here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2015, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278 "2015-09-23T06:41:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/21 "2015-09-23T14:30:07Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Jesus, as far as I know, was silent on the subject. Ironically, the quote conservatives use from Jesus to show that he was against gay marriage is actually his most ardent statement against divorce. Matthew 19:4-9: > [@](#): > > 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’\*\*? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” > > 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” > > 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” They choose to legislate around their contorted interpretation of verses 4 & 5, but choose to ignore the direct admonition found in verses 7-9. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/22 "2015-09-23T14:34:14Z")
This seems as good a thread as any to mention a bit of weaseling or pandering or something that is going on in my little city, Chillicothe, Ohio. The way to have a purely civil wedding ceremony in Chillicothe has been to get a license from the clerk of the municipal court, and then be married by one of the two municipal court judges. Probably in anticipation of the SCOTUS case, the two judges decided in April that they [would just stop doing weddings](http://www.chillicothegazette.com/story/news/local/2015/09/21/verbal-policy-stops-municipal-court-weddings/72597960/). This means that if you want to have a civil wedding in Chillicothe you are out of luck. The judges, of course, say this is all about court efficiency, nothing to do with same sex marriage. Yeah right. They appear to be in violation of state law and an Ohio Supreme Court opnion. I hope they are forced to reverse this cowardly decision. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/23 "2015-09-23T15:07:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, this is a completely new phenomenon never before seen in the history of mankind. It is somewhat unusual that we have a political system which allows a minor government official to refuse to obey the directions of a higher government authority. In most historical regimes, a disobedient official like Davis would have been removed from office. ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/24 "2015-09-23T15:09:02Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > [Kim Davis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Davis_(county_clerk)), the Kentucky clerk who won’t issue gay marriage licenses. I actually almost respected her at first, alright maybe from a distance. (As many of you may know, I am gay, and of course very much in favor of certain causes, like gay marriage.) > > But I just saw a report on ABC’s _Nightline_. Did you know she has been divorced 4 times? And (according to the report), has repeatedly committed adultery? > > Anyways, I won’t rag on Davis anymore. That would be better suited to the _Pit_. But am I wrong in thinking there is a pattern emerging here? > > Moral conservatives are only against things that don’t concern them. I think, in fact, it is the case, probably most of the time. Am I wrong? > > I know (for example) no-fault divorces were once illegal in the USA. Yet no clerk (that I’ve heard of, in the media) has ever refused to issue a divorce decree. Like one comedian said, if we could get radical conservatives to become gay or need an abortion, everything would be okay. > > Anyways, I’m not just venting here. I really want to know if my premise is flawed. I seem to find evidence most moral conservatives are hypocrites. **Am I wrong?** > > :):):)🙂 Yes, but jesus forgave here and that makes it all OK. I have zero respect for her and only contempt. If you are hired and/or elected to do a job, then you should do your job. Period. She had ample warning this was coming and should could have resigned instead of putting herself in the position to refuse service to people who were legally entitled to it. Entitled isn’t a bad word, it’s the interest you get back you paid for a Certificate of Deposit, because you are entitled to it. You pay your taxes, you vote, you elect someone into office you are entitled to have them perform services they promised to do when elected into office. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/25 "2015-09-23T15:42:02Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > **Dinsdale** , my journey from Republican to bleeding-heart liberal over the past fifteen years has caused a lot of thought and discussion for my wife and me about how we fit in to our church and our small group. You sound like you would fit in well in a Unitarian church - are there none in your area? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/26 "2015-09-23T16:04:27Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > [Kim Davis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Davis_(county_clerk)), the Kentucky clerk who won’t issue gay marriage licenses. I actually almost respected her at first, alright maybe from a distance. (As many of you may know, I am gay, and of course very much in favor of certain causes, like gay marriage.) > > But I just saw a report on ABC’s _Nightline_. Did you know she has been divorced 4 times? And (according to the report), has repeatedly committed adultery? IMNSHO, this is meaningless. The real issue and cause for debate is that Davis is a walking embodiment of why we have the 1st Amendment at all. She is a government official mandating that everyone has to kowtow to her particular flavor of religious idiocy. And as such, she should be fired outright and arrested for repeated civil rights violations. ---
**Author:** ![MegaNazz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@MegaNazz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaNazz)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/27 "2015-09-23T16:26:58Z")
I think that Kim Davis’ personal life and religious choices are actually a distraction from the real issue. She can believe that she’s been cleansed by finding faith and that homosexuality is a sin all she wants; America allows freedom of religion. But if her beliefs and the law are at odds, refusing to grant marriage certificates is a cop-out for martyrdom. She should really put her faith where her mouth is and resign from a system that wants her to do something she sees as a compromise of her belief. For example, if I had a job that asked me to murder somebody (something I’d be opposed to based on my beliefs), I wouldn’t simply refuse and then show up to work the next day as if nothing had happened. I’d quit the job. That’s standing by your beliefs. She may even want to do one better by referencing the old saying “America: love it or leave it.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/28 "2015-09-23T16:42:09Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The real issue and cause for debate is that Davis is a walking embodiment of why we have the 1st Amendment at all. She is a government official mandating that everyone has to kowtow to her particular flavor of religious idiocy. And as such, she should be fired outright and arrested for repeated civil rights violations. Legally Davis can’t be fired. She’s an elected official so she’d have to be impeached and the state legislature is not currently in session to do so (assuming that they would want to). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/29 "2015-09-23T16:54:26Z")
Being human means being a sinner. Every person with a moral compass occasionally violates that moral compass. Does that mean only libertines should be listened to on areas of morality? If we only listen to perfect messengers than we will never listen to anyone. Global warming is either a big issue or not totally independent of whether Al Gore uses airplane travel or not. Gay marriage is either right or not totally independent of how many husbands Ms Davis had. Furthermore as a legal matter the law says that the government can compel people to violate their religious beliefs only if there is a compelling reason to do so and the law does so in the least restrictive manner possible. There may be a way to get marriage certificates issued in that county without having to have Ms Davis violate her beliefs. If there is no way to have those certificates issued without her violating her beliefs than I believe she should resign. I also felt that those elected officials who refused to defend anti-gay marriage propositions in court should have resigned. It seems an awful double standard to force a county clerk to resign for doing what the governor of California was celebrated for having done. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/30 "2015-09-23T16:57:27Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > You sound like you would fit in well in a Unitarian church - are there none in your area? There is not a Unitarian church is my little city. Despite my differences with the more fundamentalist members of my church, I remain a Christian. I would probably fit in better in a mainline protestant church, like the United Methodist Church. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/31 "2015-09-23T17:05:21Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > In my view, it’s not hypocrisy so much as it is a willingness to be much more understanding of sins which they can envision themselves being involved in, and completely unsympathetic to sins which don’t even theoretically attract them. A point against that is that many of the most virulent homophobes have turned out to be closeted, self-loathing homosexuals themselves. They hate people who engage in the sins that they are _most_ attracted to, and especially loathe the suggestion that those behaviors aren’t sinful in the first place. I understand, if not actually sympathize, with them. How would it feel to be told that all your willpower and lifelong suffering to control your natural urges has really just been a mug’s game? > [@](#): > > … we’re not icky. :rolleyes: Cite? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/32 "2015-09-23T17:38:12Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > A point against that is that many of the most virulent homophobes have turned out to be closeted, self-loathing homosexuals themselves. They hate people who engage in the sins that they are _most_ attracted to, and especially loathe the suggestion that those behaviors aren’t sinful in the first place. I understand, if not actually sympathize, with them. How would it feel to be told that all your willpower and lifelong suffering to control your natural urges has really just been a mug’s game? > > Cite? 🆒 I agree with you about the anti-gay crusaders, but the folks I’m talking about aren’t crusaders or haters. They are just people who are trying to follow the bible as the literal, inerrant word of God, which is a mug’s game. I fit more into the Marcus Borg, taking it seriously without taking it literally, camp. As to a cite for the non-ickiness of me and my bride, I was asserting our non-ickiness to the five other couples in my small group, so our continued inclusion is my cite.😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/33 "2015-09-23T18:51:36Z")
There are over 3000 County Clerks. About 2000+ are Christian. But only one crazed wingnut, who afaik, isn’t even following the canon of any major Church. So, no- no pattern. Other than the fact that it was a slow news period and the media jumped all over this minor story. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/34 "2015-09-23T19:02:41Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > **Dinsdale** , my journey from Republican to bleeding-heart liberal over the past fifteen years has caused a lot of thought and discussion for my wife and me about how we fit in to our church and our small group. > \ > I believe that every Christian is a cafeteria Christian. I believe that there is no way to equally apply everything in the bible, or even everything in the new testament. Even the most fundamental of the fundamentalists have to make choices about what to apply to their lives and what to ignore. > \ > Leaving a church is a difficult thing, in part because a church is many things… Good luck on your journey. And I truly respect your acknowledgment that your beliefs have changed. Sure, it might be impossible to accept the entire bible as inerrant. But the different sects DO claim to stand for different things. It always surprises me that churchgoers will ignore basic doctrinal issues simply because one church is convenient, or where their friends go. If someone’s church is essentially a social club, good for them. But they might want to get off their high holy horse. And, if the blessed religions can mean whatever each believer wants them to mean, then why do they spend so much effort dissing each other? 😕 There are all kinds of protestant faiths that are more liberal on all manner of doctrine than evangelism. You could search those out without going all the way to UU. When we were researching churches, we found one that seemed a really good match with our beliefs/philosophy, location, community, and spiritual leader. But Rabbi Bob told us our disbelief in any supreme being pretty much automatically disqualified us! 😃 And if your church friends would no longer be your friends if you stopped going to their church and professing belief in things you no longer believe, well, I don’t have much use for that kind of “friends.” In a weird way, you can be thankful of the role they played helping you on your journey. Ain’t becoming a grown-up and thinking for yourself fun?! I’m only 54 - I’ll let you know if I ever get there myself! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/35 "2015-09-23T19:28:04Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Evangelicals, by definition, see themselves as rescued from sin, and feel a responsibility to rescue others from sin. Whether others feel like being rescued from sin is not a consideration. > > Superficially it does look like the worst hypocrisy, but I think she’s sincere (albeit entirely wrong). > > Also, I imagine that every since the SCOTUS decision, her church and friends have expressed plainly that as county clerk, they expected her to play the role of Anti-Gay Rosa Parks if the opportunity should present. Given the choice between social ostracism and low-stakes celebrity martyrdom, her actions are not in the least surprising. I agree with this. I do think she needs to step down because her faith doesn’t trump the laws of the land, but I actually do believe she’s being sincere as well. I think that **Aspidistra** ’s repentant sinner to heroic martyr theory is very well put, but I also believe that there is, relatedly, a desire to prove herself as a convert. She isn’t just a repentant sinner, but a new Christian. As a convert myself (in a Pentecostal church - I am now a liberal Lutheran), I do remember how some folks kind of were slightly dismissive of my views because they had been Christian a lot longer than me and I was just new to the whole thing and over a few years, I’d see the truth of things (and before one judges - this wasn’t someone in the Pentecostal church; this was someone in the liberal Lutheran church). I can see in that situation where someone can feel like I can show that I’m just as much of a Christian as the lifelong ones are. Jesus tells us that we are all equal regardless of the “hour” we came to believe, but plenty of Christians think they have greater knowledge due to ‘being their first’ and maybe Davis was responding to that. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/36 "2015-09-23T21:56:25Z")
> [@crotalus](#): > > there is not a unitarian church is my little city. Despite my differences with the more fundamentalist members of my church, i remain a christian. I would probably fit in better in a mainline protestant church, like the united methodist church. elca! Elca! Elllll- ca! ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/37 "2015-09-23T22:46:29Z")
Let’s not neglect to condemn the legal group representing her, the Liberty Counsel, and its head, Mat Staver. Kim Davis is, uh, a _simple_ woman who may have just knuckled-under to the law if she had been represented by competent counsel and not by a group whose goal it was to drum up publicity for themselves. Instead of telling her the reality of the situation, they encouraged her delusional stand to defy the court order. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/38 "2015-09-24T00:10:41Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > There is not a Unitarian church is my little city. Despite my differences with the more fundamentalist members of my church, I remain a Christian. I would probably fit in better in a mainline protestant church, like the United Methodist Church. You can be a Christian Unitarian, you could also be a Buddhist Unitarian - heck you can even be an atheist Unitarian(I have no idea how _that_ works). Some would could this aspect of the religion a strength, others see it as a weakness; YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/39 "2015-09-24T12:55:25Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > One of the ways that anti-SSM Christians justify singling out homosexuality as different from other sins is that homosexual sex, in their minds, is an ongoing, chosen sin. Other, “acceptable” Christians may sin on a regular basis, but they are trying to not sin. Homosexuals, by continuing to have sex within their relationship, are choosing to sin. Likewise, staying in a sinful marriage (remarriage after divorce) is a continuing sin. She has been forgiven for her past sins, but implicit in that forgiveness is the expectation that she will go forward and sin no more. If she stays in her second (or third, or fourth) marriage, she is continuing to sin, after her forgiveness. If this were not so, a gay couple could confess their sins, be forgiven, yet stay in their same sex marriage without committing a sin. Forgiveness covers all the sinful things you did in your past; it doesn’t give Kim Davis a free pass to continue her sinful marriage. Suppose a gay couple applies for a marriage license, and is told they cannot receive one because of the clerk’s religious beliefs. Can’t they just say they have been forgiven, therefore not a violation of anyone’s religious beliefs to issue them a marriage license? It comes down to whose forgiveness trumps the other, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![MegaNazz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@MegaNazz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaNazz)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278/40 "2015-09-25T17:00:09Z")
I think this is just a matter of convenience for her as far as backdating sin and things of that nature go. You could argue, in light of her new piousness, that her first divorce is null and void and she needs to begin serving her first husband. It feels sick to even write that but that’s how insane it all seems. And like someone mentioned before, this is piecemeal Christianity, which sort of weakens its reliability. It’s similar to the guy who’s currently trying to fight a murder charge by saying marijuana made him do it. If the courts allow that as a defense, I could get pissed off at someone, light a joint, blow their head off, and rest assured that I was secure from having to do any real time for it. Some boundaries need to exist and if she’s going to use a particular faith as her defense to break the law, she needs to be ready to back it up with an impeccable record. Otherwise, she needs to quit hiding behind faith and admit she’s homophobic and that it is preventing her from doing her job. She doesn’t need to go to jail, she just needs to get into a different line of work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-davis-is-there-a-pattern-emerging-here/732278.md?page=3)