# Kim Jong-il Is Dead **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705 "2011-12-19T03:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/242 "2011-12-23T16:10:08Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I don’t see how we failed. Just because there is still a terrorist resistance in Iraq doesn’t mean we didn’t liberate it from an oppressive government. Maybe, to begin with, because there wasn’t “terrorist” anything in Iraq before we came along? But anyway, I’m sure being liberated comforts the Iraqi people as they walk past the rubble that used to be their schools, the barricades and no-go zones that have turned their cities into a war zone, and the places where their children, husbands, sisters and parents have died for a “liberation” they never asked for. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/243 "2011-12-23T16:11:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I don’t think “moron” is adequate. If you’re willing to whitewash the unprovoked murder of civilians as mere attention seeking behaviour, that makes you a grade A asshole. I suppose then, that you don’t expect any heads of states to send condolences when Bush dies? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/244 "2011-12-23T16:24:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I don’t think “moron” is adequate. If you’re willing to whitewash the unprovoked murder of civilians as mere attention seeking behaviour, that makes you a grade A asshole. I am reminded of the speech in _Team America: World Police_. > [@](#): > > Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn’t appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves… because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don’t know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don’t let us fuck this asshole, we’re going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit! [Cite](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0372588/quotes). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/245 "2011-12-23T17:55:55Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I suppose then, that you don’t expect any heads of states to send condolences when Bush dies? Do you mean the president of '88 -'92 or the incomptent torturing jackass who’s untrue statements murdered hundreds of thousands and caused trillions in debt? If they’re good people I expect them to be quite pleased when the torturer dies. Good riddance to dead sources of crimes against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/246 "2011-12-23T18:03:28Z")
even sven: > [@](#): > > Maybe, to begin with, because there wasn’t “terrorist” anything in Iraq before we came along? No, there was the terror of an oppressive police-state government in Iraq before we came along. They didn’t need guerrilla operations when they and their type were actually in charge. > [@](#): > > But anyway, I’m sure being liberated comforts the Iraqi people as they walk past the rubble that used to be their schools, the barricades and no-go zones that have turned their cities into a war zone, and the places where their children, husbands, sisters and parents have died for a “liberation” they never asked for. Whether they’re happy about it or upset about it, the actual liberation was a success. They lived under an oppressive dictator before, and they no longer do. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/247 "2011-12-23T18:07:02Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Do you mean the president of '88 -'92 or the incomptent torturing jackass who’s untrue statements murdered hundreds of thousands and caused trillions in debt? > > If they’re good people I expect them to be quite pleased when the torturer dies. Good riddance to dead sources of crimes against humanity. Although I should add Carter appears to be aiming less at true feelings and more at keeping diplimatic channels open. The key phrase is “looking forward to another visit to [North Korea]”. I’m okay with that if he thinks he can do some good for the world through diplomacy ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/248 "2011-12-23T18:32:05Z")
The best thing Carter can do for world diplomacy is shut his fucking pie hole and quit making excuses for monstrous regimes like North Korea. Cripes, the Norks fed him a line of obvious bullshit and he fell for it back in the 90s. Isn’t Carter capable of learning anything? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/249 "2011-12-23T23:21:50Z")
There was recently an [interesting article](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16292769) on the BBC news site about information coming out of North Korea. A few relevant quotes: > [@](#): > > Some things have changed since 1994. There is now a primitive but thriving private market in food and basic consumer goods - eroding total state domination of the economy. > > The majority of North Koreans also have an understanding that their Chinese and South Korean neighbours live better than they do. They once thought they were the envy of the world. > [@](#): > > For decades, South Korean intelligence specialised in spreading black propaganda about North Korea, and particularly the ruling family. > > The image of Kim Jong-il as a cognac-swilling playboy with a fondness for Scandinavian women and a penchant for terrorist attacks was conjured up at the headquarters of the old Korean CIA. > > South Korea’s intelligence services are still tainted by their cold war past - but they probably have better information and sources than they let on. > > There is suspicion in Seoul that in the past agents have sometimes worked hand-in-hand with their counterparts in the north to engineer events of political advantage to both sides. > > Coincidences abound in inter-Korean affairs, and not everything has always been as it appears. Again, North Korea is not the same place it was ten years ago (this doesn’t mean I think it is good, just different) and simplistic analysis isn’t appropriate. “Whoah, bizarre crazy nation run by madmen! Everyone is uniformly deprived and starving except the one crazy guy! Pyongyang is creepy Whoah!” makes for a good [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) article, but misses that North Korea is a living, changing, complicated nation with it’s own (very different, but still very relevent) political economy. Creating US foreign policy based on the [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) version is a bad, bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/250 "2011-12-23T23:40:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Again, North Korea is not the same place it was ten years ago (this doesn’t mean I think it is good, just different) and simplistic analysis isn’t appropriate. “Whoah, bizarre crazy nation run by madmen! Everyone is uniformly deprived and starving except the one crazy guy! Pyongyang is creepy Whoah!” makes for a good [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) article, but misses that North Korea is a living, changing, complicated nation with it’s own (very different, but still very relevent) political economy. Creating US foreign policy based on the [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) version is a bad, bad idea. Well, there is acknowledging reality and there is creating policy based on reality. You keep suggesting that we not think of the leadership of North Korea as “madmen,” but you seem to gloss over the question of whether we should think of them as autocratic, repressive, brutal, violent, misogynistic, militaristic, lying, and dangerous. I mean, when you read stuff that Kim Jong Il was credited with having five holes in one his first time playing golf, or the myth that he didn’t urinate, or the true story that he bought giant rabbits from a German fellow to address the hunger problem in his country but then ate the first shipment of those rabbits for his birthday, are you REALLY so open minded that the word “a little off-kilter” cannot be reasonably and judiciously applied to the DPRK? That doesn’t mean our diplomats must address the General Assembly and begin their remarks on the latest IAEA report with “Kim Jong Un U daddy so KRAAAZY!!1!” Do you really not allow yourself to think that North Korea is, well, weird? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/251 "2011-12-28T03:29:01Z")
It’s Wednesday over here, and Kim Jong-il’s funeral has begun. Meanwhile, from the satirical Not the Nation (a parody of _The Nation_, one of Thailand’s two English-language dailies): [World Food Program Urges North Koreans To Eat Pictures Of Kim Jong Il](http://notthenation.com/2011/12/bangkok%e2%80%99s-small-nightlife-venues-rejoice-at-bomb-threats/) Again, that’s satirical, but it’s hardly less bizarre than the [real-life supernatural reports](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1105742--supernatural-feats-signalled-kim-jong-il-s-death) by North Korean media of his death’s aftermath. In addition to that BBC piece, I’ve heard that owls are weeping openly in the daytime and that a mysterious white bird has been seen brushing snow off of Kim’s statue. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/252 "2011-12-28T04:40:20Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > It’s Wednesday over here, and Kim Jong-il’s funeral has begun. > > Meanwhile, from the satirical Not the Nation (a parody of _The Nation_, one of Thailand’s two English-language dailies): [World Food Program Urges North Koreans To Eat Pictures Of Kim Jong Il](http://notthenation.com/2011/12/bangkok%e2%80%99s-small-nightlife-venues-rejoice-at-bomb-threats/) > > Again, that’s satirical, but it’s hardly less bizarre than the [real-life supernatural reports](http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1105742--supernatural-feats-signalled-kim-jong-il-s-death) by North Korean media of his death’s aftermath. In addition to that BBC piece, I’ve heard that owls are weeping openly in the daytime and that a mysterious white bird has been seen brushing snow off of Kim’s statue. Well, of course. North Koreans do not really seem to believe in Marxist ideology any more . . . They have not even the historical dialectic to believe in . . . But all traditional religion is suppressed . . . Skeptical humanism ain’t gonna fly, there’s too much skepticism in it . . . What have they got left to be God, but the Leader? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/253 "2011-12-29T02:10:00Z")
The funeral continues (it will last two days), and a “national memorial service segment” has just begun. Not sure how that differs from the rest of the funeral. A Western commentator on BBC mentioned that every resident of Pyongyang is hand-picked to live there. This funeral is quite a show. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/254 "2011-12-29T03:02:04Z")
They just had some rousing march songs by a military chorus. Right at this very moment though, three minutes of silence is being imposed nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/255 "2011-12-29T03:53:22Z")
[BBC says](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16348858) " UN offices around the world lowered their flags to half-mast," which “had been requested by Pyongyang’s UN mission but was part of normal protocol for the funeral of any head of state.” How long before some RW talking-head tries to make something of that, I wonder . . . ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/256 "2011-12-29T15:47:38Z")
I don’t think I’ve seen too many heads of state at the funeral. More like zero from what I can tell. I was sort of hoping to catch Hillary Clinton wailing and throwing herself onto Kim’s coffin. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/257 "2011-12-29T16:25:51Z")
Is he still dead? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/258 "2011-12-29T16:35:17Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Is he still dead? Are you implying he’s Jesus? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/259 "2011-12-29T16:35:56Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Is he still dead? [Be patient.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14585548#post14585548) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/260 "2011-12-29T17:18:40Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Are you implying he’s Jesus? He wouldn’t be the first Korean to claim that… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705/261 "2011-12-30T00:26:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [BBC says](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16348858) " UN offices around the world lowered their flags to half-mast," which “had been requested by Pyongyang’s UN mission but was part of normal protocol for the funeral of any head of state.” > > How long before some RW talking-head tries to make something of that, I wonder . . . Not nearly as long as it took for a LW blogger to whine about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-jong-il-is-dead/606705.md?page=12)