# Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars Trilogy - should I keep reading? (spoilers likely) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 16, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546 "2004-02-16T21:00:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Engywook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bc8723/32.png) [@Engywook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Engywook)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/1 "2004-02-16T21:00:20Z")
A number of people have recommended KS Robinson’s trilogy, _Red Mars_, _Blue Mars_, and _Green Mars_, very highly. I’m interested in the science, ethics, and social ramifications of space travel, terraforming, and longevity. So I finally got around to picking it up. The first 100 pages were quite good. The science was believable. The characters weren’t particularly likable, but I did still want to get to know them better. The tension between characters on a ship bound for Mars was intriguing, and again, believable for a small group of people trapped in a bottle together for nine months. Soon as they got to Mars, though, the trouble started. - the characters are mostly neurotic and immature - so much so that the only reason any space program would send them to another planet is to get rid of them. Still, I could get over that and think it’s an interesting story if it weren’t for the next thing: - The characters are not very well drawn. Personalities are given perfunctorily, and then only to underscore a point of view. What are these points of view? - the same set of about three arguments keeps getting repeated over and over and over… which basically all come down to the pros and cons of social, economic, and ecological revolution. These arguments seem one-sided, with a single point of view always getting a more effective expression, and the opposition usually being portrayed as laughable. For example, arguments against terraforming Mars seem to be designed to be unconvincing: one geologist says, “You put too much value on consciousness and not enough value on rock.” That’s a very representative sample of the dialog. I’ve kept plowing on, because I’m at least interested to see if this is really a thinly veiled socialist manifesto or actually a misunderstood exploration of how culture is guided (and misguided). But the lack of any real feeling, any real poignancy, or any real humanity is putting me off. What I’ve seen so far would be much more effectively told as clippings from newspapers. Good science fiction (imho) must still be good fiction, even if it isn’t great literature. Is there something I’ve missed, or haven’t gotten to yet? Am I wrong to judge science fiction based on its qualities as fiction as much as its scientific integrity? If you love these books, tell me why… or why you think the Nebula Award (and so many other experts in science fiction) think so highly of it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/2 "2004-02-16T21:24:04Z")
> [@Engywook](#): > > Soon as they got to Mars, though, the trouble started. > > - the characters are mostly neurotic and immature - so much so that the only reason any space program would send them to another planet is to get rid of them. Still, I could get over that and think it’s an interesting story if it weren’t for the next thing: > - The characters are not very well drawn. Personalities are given perfunctorily, and then only to underscore a point of view. What are these points of view? > - the same set of about three arguments keeps getting repeated over and over and over… which basically all come down to the pros and cons of social, economic, and ecological revolution. These arguments seem one-sided, with a single point of view always getting a more effective expression, and the opposition usually being portrayed as laughable. For example, arguments against terraforming Mars seem to be designed to be unconvincing: one geologist says, “You put too much value on consciousness and not enough value on rock.” That’s a very representative sample of the dialog. It’s been about eight years since i read these, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Personally I found the characters compelling, and I found the arguments on both sides of the issue (whether to terraform Mars) legitimate points of view. YMMV. However, I recommend Red Mars primarily because of the spectacle: while the characters are IMO decently drawn, and while the human drama is interesting, it’s the spectacle of the planet and the technologies used that really wowed me. I normally don’t like hard SF, but Robinson drew me in. That said, I recommend **against** the last two books in the series; indeed, I never finished the last third of the last book, because it just felt too much like Robinson had run out of energy. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/3 "2004-02-16T21:31:01Z")
I read the first two and half of the third. The plot pretty much stops after the first book. I kept reading solely to see if it would ever pick up again, but just gave up halfway through the third one when no kind of story was in sight. Lovely visuals, minimal characters and no plot. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/4 "2004-02-16T21:40:58Z")
I just stopped reading about halfway through _Red Mars_. It just wasn’t that good (or, at least, I didn’t like it). ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/5 "2004-02-16T21:46:55Z")
The characters could have been better; the love triangle between Frank, Maya and John never rises above the level you’d find in most high school lunchrooms, but with Green Mars the character focus shifts to Sax Russell, Coyote and various second- and third-generation Martians and is a little more compelling. Sax Russell is one of my favorite characters in all SF! But the characters are never the best reason to read the trilogy. It _is_ a thinly-veiled socialist manifesto, but the politics aren’t the best reason to read the trilogy either (although I think Robinson does a good job of showing how there will continue to be disagreement and strife among humans in the future, even or especially as we move off-planet). The best reason to read the trilogy is the “oo, neat!” feeling you get every few pages as something new about the science and technology of the next two hundred years on Mars is revealed. It’s at once plausible and fantastic, and really makes you believe there could be a second Earth in the solar system one day. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_the\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@Mojo\_the\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_the_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/6 "2004-02-16T22:07:49Z")
Well, don’t read these books for the characters. They’re almost all terrible, spiteful, thinly drawn and unattractive characters, and they don’t get any better as the books go on. That said, I loved the books and devoured them. The audacity of the project to teraform a planet is fascinating to me, and I love the science behind the plot. I was also intrigued by the idea that, while humans were busy altering Mars to suit them, the alien environment of Mars was pushing back and altering the social and political structures of humanity. Another intriguing idea presented by the novels is that the presence of a frontier creates and environment that allows for greater social and economic freedoms, because of a lack of political centralization and a chronic shortage of labor on the frontier. Although I’ve since decided this theory is pure bunk, I found the idea compelling and the books inspired a couple of weeks of intense political debate in my head about the nature and consequences of a frontier. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/7 "2004-02-16T22:27:28Z")
… Member of the vast Right Wing Conspiracy here… I read _Red Mars_ as part of an online science fiction novel group that I formed on another forum (thread [here](http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84892&pagenumber=1), warning: SPOILERS.) and absolutely loved it… as I did the subsequent novels. I disagree with the OP (and most of the others that have posted already): in the realm of hard science fiction novels, the characters are about as well-drawn as you will find. Think some of them act like needy children? Well, a lot of _adults_ act like needy children, even those who have “superior” intellects. I thought KSR did a pretty good job of giving the differing characters different personalities (though they did tend to talk alike), from the emotionally clingy Maya to John the “can’t we all get along” politico. I found a lot in the novel to ring true-to-life, ala the following passage: > [@](#): > > That evening he went looking for Maya, feeling helpless in the grip of a compulsion. The decision had been made the night before, when Janet said, “She loves you, you know.” And he turned a corner to the dining commons there she was, her head thrown back in the middle of her pealing laugh, vividly Maya, her hair as white it as it had once been black, her eyes fixed on her companion; a man, dark-haired, handsome, perhaps in his fifties, smiling at her. Maya put a hand to his upper arm, a characteristic gesture, one of her usual intimacies, it meant nothing and in fact indicated that he was not her lover but rather someone she was in the process of enchanting; the could have met just minutes before, although the look on his face indicated he knew her better than that. > > She turned and saw Frank, blinked with surprise. She looked back at the man and continued to speak, in Russian, her hand still in his arm. > > Frank hesitated and almost turned and left. Silently he cursed himself – was he no more than a schoolboy, then? He walked by them and said hello, did not hear if they replied. All through the dinner she stayed glued to the man’s side, not looking his way, not coming over. The man, pleasant-enough looking, was surprised at her attention, surprised but pleased. Clearly they would leave together, clearly they would spend the night together. That foreknowledge always made people pleasant. She would use people like that without a qualm, the bitch. Love… The more he thought about it, the angrier he got. She had never loved anyone but herself. And yet… that look on her face when she first saw him; for a split second hadn’t she been pleased, and then wanted him angry at her? And wasn’t that a sign of hurt feelings, of a desire to hurt back, meaning a certain (incredibly childish) desire for him? > > Well, to hell with her. He went back to his room and packed his bag, and took the subway to the train stations, and got on a night train west, up Tharsis to Pavonis Mons. In the above, I think he does a pretty good job of describing this situation from the viewpoint of a man who is afraid to love, who believes in the purposefulness of anger to such a point that he _cannot_ let go of it. Frank has an opportunity to do things a different way, but like most of us most of the time he decides to fall back on the old habits, the comfortable way of doing things. And what could be more human than that? From the OP: > [@](#): > > - the same set of about three arguments keeps getting repeated over and over and over… which basically all come down to the pros and cons of social, economic, and ecological revolution. These arguments seem one-sided, with a single point of view always getting a more effective expression, and the opposition usually being portrayed as laughable. For example, arguments against terraforming Mars seem to be designed to be unconvincing: one geologist says, “You put too much value on consciousness and not enough value on rock.” That’s a very representative sample of the dialog. But isn’t that the way with all debates? How many times do we here at the SDMB read the same tired arguments regarding gay marriage, communism vs. capitalism, gun control, ad naseum? Yeah, the side that KSR agrees with does get better representation, but such is the way of the world: nobody is ever, truly neutral and somebody going to the effort to write 1,500 pages about a subject surely isn’t - or else he wouldn’t write the books. I’ve never cried before reading a book (well, I did when I was 6 and read Anderson’s _The Little Match Girl_), but the ending of Green Mars caught my breath and choked me up a little. I never realized how much I grew to appreciate Ann (the rock woman), and the last words of the novel that showed her acceptance and enjoyment of life, echoing an argument that she made _against_ terraforming and life, literally took my breath away. So, to answer your question: YES, FINISH IT! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/8 "2004-02-16T22:30:53Z")
I really enjoyed Robinson’s four Mars books. Yes, there are some characters I didn’t like-- but I wasn’t supposed to like Phyllis, and I’m supposed to be conflicted about Frank. That being said, I liked the way she was written… Some sections delve into what is essentially character study, while others focus on a thoughtful examination of what life on Mars really could be like. The overarching plot and events sustained my interest too. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/9 "2004-02-16T23:11:03Z")
I found it heavy sledding at times. It can be ponderous, repetitive and oddly predictable on certain points. But it was worthwhile as sci-fi and it built an effective furure “world” (so to speak) that struck me as very believable. That to me was the key and why I was glad I finished … Were the characters & plot A-1? No. Was it an overall unforgettable glimpse of a possible future that changed my outlook and thinking a bit? Yep ---
**Author:** ![Ave\_Minerva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@Ave\_Minerva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ave_Minerva)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/10 "2004-02-17T00:15:10Z")
I generally like Robinson’s work but the Mars books just didn’t do it for me. I think I made it through Blue Mars and stopped. I loved the Orange County books though. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/11 "2004-02-17T02:22:40Z")
I agree with **JohnT** I adore the Mars Trilogy. I’ve read them several times, and never get tired of them. I love Robinson’s minimalist style; the science is fascinating and well-researched, and I find the social speculation intereseting as well. I also find the characters, the main ones anyway, very well-drawn and believable. Although it takes a while to get the full picture. I truly think of them almost as family—they’re all part of your life and unique, even if you don’t like all of them all the time. I will agree that, plotwise, it starts to drag partway through the second book. I still found it enjoyable, but a bit slow. The third book is _really_ slow, but it picks up at the very end, and the very end is extremely satisfying. I think that’s what **JohnT** was referring to…you meant _Blue Mars_, right? That’s the last one, not _Green_. Yeah, the last paragraph always makes me tear up a bit too. In fact, I find it so beautiful, I can’t resist quoting it, but I’ll put it in a spoiler box. WARNING: Last paragraph of the trilogy here! Don’t read if you’re going to finish the trilogy!: But it still moves, Ann thought. She followed the child, smiling at her little joke. Galileo could have refused to recant, gone to the stake for the sake of the truth, but that would have been silly. Better to say what one had to, and go on from there. A brush reminded one what was important. Oh yes, very pretty! She admitted it and was allowed to live. Beat on, heart. And why not admit it. Nowhere on this world were people killing each other, nowhere were they desperate for shelter or food, nowhere were they scared for their kids. There was that to be said. The sand squeaked underfoot as she toed it. She looked more closely: dark grains of basalt, mixed with minute seashell fragments, and a variety of colorful pebbles, some of them no doubt brecciated fragments of the Hellas impact itself. She lifted her eyes to the hills west of the sea, black under the sun. The bones of things stuck out everywhere. Waves broke in swift lines on the beach, and she walked over the sand toward her friends, in the wind, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars, on Mars. Yes, finish it. It’s worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/12 "2004-02-17T02:36:30Z")
I quit after 100 pages. The characters were HORRIBLE! It was like reading crap in word form. Hard Sci-Fi is only interesting if the writer can make characters that seem real, which did not exist. And recent events on Earth have nullified several aspects in the book. The book was soooo bad it soiled me on Kim Robinson’s books and i haven’t bothered with Years of Rice and Salt, which i wanted to read until i read this book (big alternate history fan) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/13 "2004-02-17T02:58:30Z")
You’re right, Ferrous: It was _Blue Mars_ and not _Green_. I get the titles mixed up all the bloody time. I’m glad I’m not the only one who really enjoyed the series. I reread my SF discussion group thread linked above and started to wonder if I was the only one that enjoyed it… ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/14 "2004-02-17T05:36:55Z")
Well, I ploughed through all three books of the original trilogy and would like them well enough to recommend. Yes, I did have trouble keeping track of all those characters, but to me the high points were always the landscape descriptions, and how they changed as the process of terraforming slowly altered the planet. It’s interesting that so many science fiction authors don’t delve into landscapes in depth. Hey, you know that on another planet quite a bit of the physical appearance will be entirely different from Earth. Robinson considers everything, and analyzes how it will affect humans. What happens when we have to deal with a “day” longer than 24 hours? What would it feel like to have the horizon closer than “normal”? What is the effect of living in lighter gravity? To me, it’s those things that made the books interesting. But man, if you think the characters are neurotic and annoying in _Red_, you’re not gonna like _Green_ one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/15 "2004-02-17T13:16:39Z")
I loved the idea of the _Accelerando,_ and I very much hope someday something like it comes to pass for humanity. [spoiler]It does bother me a little that so much of the ongoing plot hinges on runaway overpopulation on Earth continuing into the next two centuries. This Malthusian prediction is almost certainly not going to happen, based on what we know now, and I have to wonder if Robinson would have designed a different central conflict if he’d written the books even a couple of years later. Have those of you who read the trilogy also read The Martians? How did we all like that? ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/16 "2004-02-17T13:18:14Z")
I’m an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/17 "2004-02-17T13:53:00Z")
That’s OK… the title of the thread is enough spoiler warning for most people. ---
**Author:** ![Ave\_Minerva](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@Ave\_Minerva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ave_Minerva)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/18 "2004-02-17T17:15:43Z")
I could have sworn that Blue Mars was the 2nd book, but my memory was playing tricks again. I guess I read the entire trilogy then. Heck, maybe I liked it more than I remember. I read the Mars book as soon as they were released in paperback, so it’s been a while. Tars Tarkas, Years of Rich and Salt is very good. The beginning was a little slow for me, but it really picked up after about the first third of the book. I especially liked the alternate San Francisco. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/19 "2004-02-17T20:26:11Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > Have those of you who read the trilogy also read The Martians? How did we all like that? I liked it, although not as much as the original trilogy. I was under the impression that it was going to be a sort of sequel to the trilogy; various short stories telling bits of Mars history we didn’t get in the trilogy, and from different perspectives. Which it sort of was, in part, but a lot of it took place in various “alternate universes”. One in which the First Hundred mission was scrapped, one in which life was found on Mars, etc… That was interesting in itself, but not as satisfying, IMO, as if it had all been about the “real world” from differing points of view. Some of the stories were great. I really liked “Maya and Desmond.” Actually better than the “real” story of their relationship. “Jackie on Zo” is a wonderful little piece, and also fits in well with the trilogy. I liked “Sexual Dimorphism” a lot as well. Some of it didn’t work for me though. The whole Roger Clayborne/Eileen Monday, in particular—“Green Mars”, “A Martian Romance”, maybe one or two others, I don’t remember—I found it boring; too much like stuff I’d seen before. It felt like Robonson’s _Antarctica_ (which is the worst of his books, IMO) transferred to Mars. On the whole, a worthwhile read. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546/20 "2004-02-17T21:38:26Z")
Definitely keep going. The handling of issues like space elevators, mass drivers, terraforming planets (including other ones besides Mars), inter-planetary conflicts, environmental based economies, the ethics of destroying the environment on mars, the potential pitfalls of anti-aging treatments, creating new constitutions, and whether or not factions of humanity can work towards common goals when seperated by great distances are all intriguing and thought-provoking. Plenty of big BOOM moments too. Sure, it’s not the best character development, nor is it the best dialogue, but it is really comprehensive in covering the issues a new branch of humanity will face when they set up what will be our third home . . . Cool stuff. It’s the ideas rather than the narrative that really grabbed me . . . DaLovin’ Dj [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kim-stanley-robinsons-mars-trilogy-should-i-keep-reading-spoilers-likely/229546.md?page=2)