# Kinda gross - Avian Anatomy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 7, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113 "2007-12-07T03:00:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2007, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/21 "2007-12-08T06:07:44Z")
The bird looks surprisingly calm, almost happy, given that its neck was just ripped off. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/22 "2007-12-08T15:02:00Z")
He is obviously enjoying life to the fullest in his final hour. Perhaps he is looking for a rose bush to stop and smell. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/23 "2007-12-08T18:55:34Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] The bird looks surprisingly calm, almost happy, given that its neck was just ripped off. [/QUOTE] Unlike birds in cartoons, real ones are actually quite expressionless - they can’t smile. frown, grimace or pout, because they have beaks, not lips. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/24 "2007-12-09T00:59:31Z")
Another voice supporting the fact that the gull still has muscles on his neck. If he didn’t you would be able to see the bones. Can someone who’s better at non-domestics tell me who the interloping brown raptor is? Hopefully, he finished off the gull after the Peregrine booked. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/25 "2007-12-09T16:27:20Z")
[QUOTE=Pullet] Can someone who’s better at non-domestics tell me who the interloping brown raptor is? Hopefully, he finished off the gull after the Peregrine booked. [/QUOTE] I suck at raptor ID, but based on how unlikely another species would interlope, I’d guess it to be an immature or female of the same (Peregrine) species. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/26 "2007-12-09T23:16:59Z")
[QUOTE=vetbridge] I suck at raptor ID, but based on how unlikely another species would interlope, I’d guess it to be an immature or female of the same (Peregrine) species. [/QUOTE] There’s an immature Peregrine on [this page](http://www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/Peregrine_Falcon.html) , it doesn’t look the same, even juveniles seem to have the “tear-streaks”. It looks more like a hawk, maybe a [dark phase red-tailed hawk](http://www.peregrine-foundation.ca/raptors/Hawks/redtailedMarch200269.html) or rough-legged hawk but my hawk vs falcon identifying mojo is off this week. Where’s Colibri? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/27 "2007-12-09T23:33:27Z")
[QUOTE=Wile E] There’s an immature Peregrine on [this page](http://www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBirds/BirdGuide/Peregrine_Falcon.html) , it doesn’t look the same, even juveniles seem to have the “tear-streaks”. It looks more like a hawk, maybe a [dark phase red-tailed hawk](http://www.peregrine-foundation.ca/raptors/Hawks/redtailedMarch200269.html) or rough-legged hawk but my hawk vs falcon identifying mojo is off this week. Where’s Colibri? [/QUOTE] It’s definitely not a falcon of any kind. I’m pretty sure it’s a Buteo of some sort. Dark-phase birds are tough, especially if you only have one view. My best guess is a dark-phase Red-tailed Hawk, in part just because that’s the commonest species in most of the US and because they are so variable. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/28 "2007-12-09T23:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] It’s definitely not a falcon of any kind. I’m pretty sure it’s a Buteo of some sort. Dark-phase birds are tough, especially if you only have one view. My best guess is a dark-phase Red-tailed Hawk, in part just because that’s the commonest species in most of the US and because they are so variable. [/QUOTE] Yay! I was kind of right! ---
**Author:** ![Fetchund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@Fetchund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fetchund)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/29 "2007-12-10T04:11:23Z")
I am going to respectfully disagree and state that it is a Rough-legged Hawk, based on the extensive white on the base of the tail. Possibly an immature dark phase, which would give it both the white on the tail, and the combination dark chest/dark belly. A dark phase Red-tail should have a less distinct delineation of dark and light on the tail. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/30 "2007-12-10T04:55:10Z")
[QUOTE=Fetchund] I am going to respectfully disagree and state that it is a Rough-legged Hawk, based on the extensive white on the base of the tail. Possibly an immature dark phase, which would give it both the white on the tail, and the combination dark chest/dark belly. A dark phase Red-tail should have a less distinct delineation of dark and light on the tail. [/QUOTE] Good observation, but Rough-leg is one we can definitely rule out. Rough-legs have the legs feathered to the toes (the basis for the name), and it’s pretty clear that this bird has unfeathered legs. Unfortunately, we don’t seem to have a location for the photographs. However, looking at this hawk and the gull more closely suggest they may not have been taken in North America. I suspect the gull is a young Common (or Mew) Gull, and the hawk is a dark-phase Common Buzzard, distinguished by the U-shaped pale patch on the breast. The apparent delineation between light and dark on the tail may be an artifact produced by the way the tail is held. The photos may have been taken in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/31 "2007-12-10T08:52:38Z")
So, **Colibri** , what are the odds that the brown raptor pushed the Peregrine off the gull? Is there pecking order in raptors? ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/32 "2007-12-10T13:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=vetbridge] **I suck at raptor ID** , but based on how unlikely another species would interlope, I’d guess it to be an immature or female of the same (Peregrine) species. [/QUOTE] I stand by the bolded part, anyways. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fetchund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b2d939/32.png) [@Fetchund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fetchund)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/33 "2007-12-10T17:31:41Z")
Oh, poop. I \*knew \*there was something wrong!!! (hangs head in shame…) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/34 "2007-12-10T23:12:08Z")
[QUOTE=Pullet] So, **Colibri** , what are the odds that the brown raptor pushed the Peregrine off the gull? Is there pecking order in raptors? [/QUOTE] If it is a Common Buzzard, they range higher in weight than Peregrines, but there is a lot of overlap, so without a direct comparison it is not certain that this bird was larger. Certainly, however, there are dominance relationships between raptors, especially carrion-feeders. There is a distinct rank order between vulture species feeding at carcasses based on size. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/35 "2007-12-10T23:12:55Z")
[QUOTE=Fetchund] Oh, poop. I \*knew \*there was something wrong!!! (hangs head in shame…) [/QUOTE] No need to be ashamed. I _said_ dark Buteos were tough. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/36 "2007-12-10T23:22:22Z")
How did we determine that there’s one predator scaring off another here? I mean, the sequence of photos appears to match that general narrative, but that one of the darker bird on its own might have been spuriously inserted into the sequence. Also, assuming this is a case of one bird causing the other to leave the prey, could it be something other than actual dominance? Just distraction perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/37 "2007-12-11T00:49:34Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] How did we determine that there’s one predator scaring off another here? [/QUOTE] We didn’t. Just my pet theory. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/38 "2007-12-11T02:21:28Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Unlike birds in cartoons, real ones are actually quite expressionless - they can’t smile. frown, grimace or pout, because they have beaks, not lips. [/QUOTE] The squint of the eyes looks like a pained expression to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2007, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/39 "2007-12-11T09:25:31Z")
[QUOTE=cornflakes] The squint of the eyes looks like a pained expression to me. [/QUOTE] Quite - and it’s probably the only bit of this bird’s face capable of showing expression. In some bird families, expression is achieved by raising feathers, but not significantly in gulls, as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113/40 "2007-12-12T02:49:04Z")
Not really on topic, but anyone who’s owned pet birds knows just how expressive they can be. Wave a cheerio at them and see their eyes light up; tell them “No” and see just how dejected they can get. My tiel is currently in fluffy contentment on my shoulder. If I merely glance over, he’ll give me that expectant look…“will she scratch my head or won’t she?” I’m paper-training him, and it’s crystal clear that he knows what to do just from how he looks at me and the paper. The seagull appears pretty stricken to me. The squinty eyes, the open mouth, the wings held far from the body… all taken together tell a picture of stress. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinda-gross-avian-anatomy/429113.md?page=1)