# Kindergarten too young to join the N.R.A. ? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010 "2011-04-19T22:47:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/81 "2011-04-21T01:10:32Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > If the NRA is 110% against kids shooting guns, please explain why the NRA has a youth program? Again. Geez. Literacy is a virtue. Shall I once more quote what I was commenting on? I suppose I must. > [@](#): > > I am completely convinced the NRA and gun rights’ folks are 110% against little kids shooting **each other** with guns. There, I even bolded it so you need not search it out. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/82 "2011-04-21T01:52:25Z")
Oh, so you’re saying that NRA is teaching kids to shoot _themselves_? Is there no perfidy the NRA won’t sink to? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/83 "2011-04-21T04:29:41Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Oh, I see. These are acceptable collateral damage. Providing a few dozen more would still make it so insignificant as to mean nothing? Yes? All statistics in this post are from 2005 because I’m too lazy to spend any more time on Google dealing with this retarded argument than I have to. I eagerly await your stunning declaration that people who have water are callously ignoring the acceptable collateral damage of the 775 kids under 14 who die from drowning. Y’know, since that’s the criterion. Or the declaration that people who have cars rather than using bikes and public transport are callously ignoring the acceptable collateral damage of 2,028 kids who died in motor vehicle-related accidents. Y’know, since that’s the criterion. How about you get on that shit and then maybe you can bother with the 48 accidental deaths from firearms for kids under 14. Then after that you can take on Mother Nature (natural/environment being listed for 47 deaths). But you’d better wrap 'em in nerf or outlaw gravity first (79 deaths). Basically, stop being hysterical. If a tool or recreational item is dangerous, people are going to accidentally or purposefully hurt others with it. Even if we’re allowing useful tools to slide, and pretending that a gun isn’t that, you still have literally 20x the deaths from drowning, so better get on that anti-pool crusade. Obligatory disclaimer: I think it’s tragic when kids die, period. The owner of that gun needs to be looking at a felony sentence (my state imposes a 5-year sentence and $10,000 fine for the illegal transfer of gun ownership alone, IIRC, and it should certainly apply here). Beyond that, the rest of Cartooniverse’s argument hovers somewhere between “blatant rabble-rousing falsehoods” (the NRA crap), “blatant falsehoods, period” (the idea that kids dying from gun accidents is anything that can be described as “common”) and “it’s only worth banning dangerous things if I personally don’t like them” (his assertion that there are enough kid deaths from firearms for this to be an immediate action item, in the absence of his anti-swimming crusade) ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/84 "2011-04-21T04:40:15Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I heard that’s 90% of what Planned Parenthood does. You really need to stop selecting only part of the story to report. To be clear: Yes, performing abortions on 5 year-olds is indeed 90% of what Planned Parenthood does, but only 3% of 5 year-olds need abortions. The other 97% of 5 year-olds are either getting blow jobs and/or masturbating like a motherfuck. See, given the whole story it doesn’t seem so bad. However kids do need to get some outdoor playtime in, so it’s not surprising that the NRA is encouraging them to shoot each other. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/85 "2011-04-21T06:39:44Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Would the NRA support legislation reflecting this? As in, you let your 6 year old bring a loaded weapon to school where it’s discharged, harming 3 kids, are you charged with a felony? Because I sure as hell know if I walked into a school with a loaded weapon and discharged it, harming 3 students, I’d be spending a whole lot of time in prison. > > Or, by “responsible” do you mean a slap on the wrist “naughty naughty gun owner, take a safety class and be on probation for a year” type of responsibility? I think you don’t understand what could happen to a “responsible” gun owner can and does often happen. According to the NRA and according to all of the classes I’ve taken, the most important thing to do is secure my weapons. Even if I got a slap on the wrist for letting someone, child or burgler harm people, the civil cases would ruin my life forever. If you were to bother to read up about this stuff, you would learn that most “responsible” gun owners understand that they are “responsible” for every bullet that leaves the muzzle of their gun. Let me put it another way…the main weapon most people have is a car. If your 6 year old child found your car keys, got into your car and ran 3 people over…would you expect to get off with a handslap? Well, yes, you would expect just that to happen. “Responsible” gun owners would never expect to just walk away with a “bad gun owner” slap on the hand. Please reread my post, and pay attention to the part where I said that I know that if someone breaks into my home and steals my gun and shoots someone, I will be responsible. The NRA wouldn’t defend me for that. They would blame it on me because I didn’t secure my weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/86 "2011-04-21T12:36:16Z")
> [@flatlined](#): > > I think you don’t understand what could happen to a “responsible” gun owner can and does often happen. > > According to the NRA and according to all of the classes I’ve taken, the most important thing to do is secure my weapons. Even if I got a slap on the wrist for letting someone, child or burgler harm people, the civil cases would ruin my life forever. Fuck civil cases. If you’re “responsible” for what happened with your weapon, you’re doing felony time when someone dies because of what you did. Anything less and the quotes around the word “responsible” indicate sarcasm instead of emphasis. > [@](#): > > Let me put it another way…the main weapon most people have is a car. If your 6 year old child found your car keys, got into your car and ran 3 people over…would you expect to get off with a handslap? Well, yes, you would expect just that to happen. It’s even worse than that, I have bricks and stones in my front yard landscape, completely unsecured! Any hooligan could pick one up and bash a person’s head in. I don’t know how I sleep at night knowing I could be arming dozens of criminals with deadly bricks. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/87 "2011-04-21T14:20:34Z")
Guns are exactly the same as sex, in a way. On one side we have people preaching abstinence. Which will never work, because the guns are already out there, and they aren’t going way. On the other side you have people preaching that everyone should carry a gun, whether they want to or not, and everyone should be 100% familiar with guns and be ready to throw down at any point. Which is no good because lots of us don’t want them and don’t care about them and even if we had one for skeet shooting or target practice don’t want to carry. I have indeed heard both sides in this very board, though I hear the first viewpoint more often. But there’s always the excluded middle. Gun safety needs to be taught, we cannot all stick our fingers in our ears and go la-la-la and hope it goes away, and the owner of this gun should go to jail and have to pay a hefty fine. It’s not owning guns that can be criminalized anymore, that cat’s out of the bag. It’s the improper handling of guns - specifically, in this case, leaving it where an unsupervised minor can get at it. And how hard is it to get my quote right? Airman Doors already corrected you but I did say the NRA is against kids shooting kids. I never said that they are against kids SHOOTING and I would argue that if the parents have guns at home already, it is a better idea for the parents to be schooling the little ones in gun use and gun safety. BECAUSE IT’S RIGHT THERE. And anything you say “Daddy can use and you can NEVER use” develops an allure right away. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/88 "2011-04-21T15:00:35Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > And how hard is it to get my quote right? Airman Doors already corrected you but I did say the NRA is against kids shooting kids. I never said that they are against kids SHOOTING and I would argue that if the parents have guns at home already, it is a better idea for the parents to be schooling the little ones in gun use and gun safety. BECAUSE IT’S RIGHT THERE. And anything you say “Daddy can use and you can NEVER use” develops an allure right away. You best believe this is why my daughter will, if she asks about my guns, earn a trip to the range complete with full safety instruction and paper versions of the checklists I do mentally every time. I figure the way I learned it (guns are potentially fun, but there are a lot of “must do every time” chores that cannot ever be skipped or shortened) will reduce her interest sufficiently until she grows up enough to have the patience for doing it the right way. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/89 "2011-04-21T19:37:49Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > You best believe this is why my daughter will, if she asks about my guns, earn a trip to the range complete with full safety instruction and paper versions of the checklists I do mentally every time. I figure the way I learned it (guns are potentially fun, but there are a lot of “must do every time” chores that cannot ever be skipped or shortened) will reduce her interest sufficiently until she grows up enough to have the patience for doing it the right way. FWIW, this is exactly the method my parents used to demystify and reduce my interest in guns. It worked perfectly. I can’t look at a deer rifle now without remembering what a PITA it was to clean everything afterwards, never mind all of the steps it took to reload its ammunition. As a further update, [police have not yet charged the parents of the boy](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7531077.html). > [@](#): > > Criminal charges filed in the case, if any, would be against any adults involved in the incident, said the president of the Harris County Criminal Lawyers Association, Nicole DeBorde. > “What will make a difference in this case are the facts on what led to this child getting the gun in his hands,” she said. > Depending on findings of the investigation, DeBorde speculated a charge of making a firearm accessible to a child - a Class C misdemeanor, comparable to a traffic ticket - could be applicable. > However, she said if the circumstances surrounding the case are serious enough, prosecutors could accept a charge of endangerment to a child, a state jail felony. So there may be felony child endangerment charges after all. Still no word on what kind of .380 pistol it was, for those interested. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/90 "2011-04-21T19:41:11Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > As a further update, [police have not yet charged the parents of the boy](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7531077.html). > > So there may be felony child endangerment charges after all. Still no word on what kind of .380 pistol it was, for those interested. I’m actually seriously offended at the idea that “making a firearm accessible to a child” is only a misdemeanor, and I’m the guy who’s argued for legalizing machine guns in other threads. God dammit, if someone gets their mitts on your gun and hurts someone else with it… unless you reported it to the police as a stolen gun the minute you were aware the gun was absent, your finger might as well have been on the trigger in terms of your moral responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/91 "2011-04-21T20:45:25Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > But there’s always the excluded middle. True, but the biggest problem we face is that there will always be morons. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/92 "2011-04-21T21:51:03Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > No. I think based on this and other gun rights threads on the Dope that people who believe in gun rights own guns, keep guns in their house, shoot guns, enjoy showing guns to small children, like other people who like to shoot guns and are deeply excited by the use of guns. I own a shotgun for home defense, but I rarely fire it at all and I’m certainly not deeply excited by it. I don’t hang around gung-ho gun advocates and think that the overall level of gun worship in this country borders on the absurd sometimes. I actually feel somewhat awkward being on the “pro” side of a gun debate, but your “argument” is so hysterically incoherent that I really have no choice. So, congratulations. Guess you made a convert. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/93 "2011-04-21T22:30:19Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > True, but the biggest problem we face is that there will always be morons. Wait… is that an argument for fewer guns, or for more guns? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/94 "2011-04-21T22:55:20Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I believe you will be extremely hard pressed to find the pro-gun posters in here coming back to say, " By gum, I am pro-gun rights but I don’t own one. Wouldn’t have one in the house. Don’t go shooting guns for any reason. " I am pro-gun\*, but don’t own one, don’t want one in my house, and don’t go shooting. Although, in fairness, you are correct that I won’t be prefacing anything with ‘by gum.’ \*By this I mean that I believe that non-felons should be able to own one if they want to - not that I’m in favor of little kids shooting one another. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/95 "2011-04-21T23:27:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wait… is that an argument for fewer guns, or for more guns? Neither. There’s always gonna be a moron who should never hold a gun, and a moron that needs to be put down. I think I understand the problem. But do not know what the solution is. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/96 "2011-04-21T23:48:49Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Neither. > > There’s always gonna be a moron who should never hold a gun, and a moron that needs to be put down. I think I understand the problem. But do not know what the solution is. Batman. The solution is Batman. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/97 "2011-04-21T23:49:11Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I believe you will be extremely hard pressed to find the pro-gun posters in here coming back to say, " By gum, I am pro-gun rights but I don’t own one. Wouldn’t have one in the house. Don’t go shooting guns for any reason. " I did that, like, fifty posts before you wrote this. ---
**Author:** ![eno801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@eno801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eno801)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/98 "2011-04-22T02:57:40Z")
> [@](#): > > You best believe this is why my daughter will, if she asks about my guns, earn a trip to the range complete with full safety instruction and paper versions of the checklists I do mentally every time. I figure the way I learned it (guns are potentially fun, but there are a lot of “must do every time” chores that cannot ever be skipped or shortened) will reduce her interest sufficiently until she grows up enough to have the patience for doing it the right way. i hear you. My niece recently showed interest in shooting after I had gone with my mom. but after the safety lecture, going to the range, the loud noise, smelling like gunpowder, she decided Galveston this weekend was a more fun option. 😛 oh I forgot Cartooniverse is pot smoking camera stealing douche (stunned sarcasm) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/99 "2011-04-22T04:00:49Z")
Anyone wanna take bets on whether a) Cartooniverse is going to announce his anti-cars-and-water campaign when he gets back, or b) Cartooniverse is going to try to snip my post to imply I said I don’t care about children dying again when he gets back? ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2011, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010/100 "2011-04-22T05:07:36Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Fuck civil cases. If you’re “responsible” for what happened with your weapon, you’re doing felony time when someone dies because of what you did. Anything less and the quotes around the word “responsible” indicate sarcasm instead of emphasis. You are the one who first used quotes. I was just following your lead. Your sarcasm is hard to understand. Do you have any idea how much civil cases can ruin someone’s life? Did you even bother to read my post? My guns are locked up unless they are attached to my body. I am responsible for them. I blame the parents for this, not the kid. I don’t think its right that if someone breaks into my home, then steals my guns, that I will have criminal and civil sanctions landing on my head. That’s the way the law works, so I have a gunsafe that is bolted to the floor. However, if I had young children, I’d do what other posters have said. Education is the key. I was raised with guns. I knew how to get my hands on them, but I also knew that if I touched them without permission, I would die a horrible death. > [@](#): > > It’s even worse than that, I have bricks and stones in my front yard landscape, completely unsecured! Any hooligan could pick one up and bash a person’s head in. I don’t know how I sleep at night knowing I could be arming dozens of criminals with deadly bricks. So, this means that you think you should get a free pass if your child was messing around in your car, managed to put it in in drive and then killed someone? What about if your 6 year old kid did pick up a brick and hit another kid with it? What I’m getting from this is that the only reason you think someone should get felony time for their kids hurting or killing someone is if guns are involved. Whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kindergarten-too-young-to-join-the-n-r-a/579010.md?page=6)