# King Arthur: Jerry Bruckheimer corrects historians **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 11, 2004, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428 "2004-04-11T06:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/21 "2004-04-12T07:00:47Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > Surely you’re not forgetting _Knightriders,_ are you? Is that the one where King Arthur fights crime with the help of a talking car? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/22 "2004-04-12T10:37:59Z")
I’d be surprised if this new movie is as bad as _First Knight_. That movie was a steaming pile with partially digested grass and a swarm of flies. Besides, this one has Merlin as a screaming loony. I always knew Merlin was a screaming loony when Arthur wasn’t around. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/23 "2004-04-12T11:13:22Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Side question: Has there ever actually been a good _serious_ film about King Arthur? _Holy Grail_ is, IMHO, not only a better movie but actually more historically and legendarily accurate than any other Arthur flick I can remember seeing! Excaliber was a fairly decent movie. It taught me that wearing platemail during love making was their version of safe sex. Now I don’t go anywhere without my codpiece. Marc ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/24 "2004-04-12T12:42:05Z")
King Arthur to young Thomas Malory: > [@](#): > > Now listen, man. Don’t get these legendary people muddled up. It is I [Arthur] who tell you about my ideas. – T.H. White ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/25 "2004-04-12T13:07:42Z")
(Total hijack) Everything I know about the Real Arthur comes from Rosemary Sutcliff’s book _The Lantern Bearers_, (very excellent book) and I can’t remember whether it was Ambrosius or Artos who became the foundation for the Arthurian legend. Ambrosius became high king, but Artos had the name… ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/26 "2004-04-12T13:58:10Z")
> [@Lissla Lissar](#): > > (Total hijack) > > Everything I know about the Real Arthur comes from Rosemary Sutcliff’s book _The Lantern Bearers_, (very excellent book) and I can’t remember whether it was Ambrosius or Artos who became the foundation for the Arthurian legend. Ambrosius became high king, but Artos had the name… Gildas, the only historian who wrote about Britain who would have lived during the time of Arthur, mentioned non names but refers (very negatively) to a chariot driving warlord who most believe is Arthur. Gildas called him “the Bear”, which in most Brittanic Celt dialects was “Arto”. Ambrosius Aurelianus probably existed in some capacity a generation before the one we generally ascribe to Arthur. Geoffrey Ashe for a time believed in the historicity of Arthur as a Celtic warlord (who was as Roman as he remembered how to be) in the late fifth/early sixth century, then identified him and Ambrosius as the same person for a while, and now identifies Arthur with Riothamus (a complete about-face from his earlier views) and Ambrosius as a later (not earlier) figure. The best web site on Arthurian history and legend is [the Camelot Project](http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/cphome.stm) at the University of Rochester (NY). It contains reproductions of a lot of the primary sources and medeival/Victorian poems. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/27 "2004-04-12T14:03:42Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Geoffrey Ashe for a time believed in the historicity of Arthur as a Celtic warlord (who was as Roman as he remembered how to be) in the late fifth/early sixth century, then identified him and Ambrosius as the same person for a while, and now identifies Arthur with Riothamus (a complete about-face from his earlier views) and Ambrosius as a later (not earlier) figure. Yeah, I kinda lost respect for Ashe when he went that route. He made a powerful case in his earlier books that Arthur was, by definition, the Celtic warleader who won the victory at Badon, basically because no other warleader was given credit for it and if Arthur didn’t fight that battle, then who did? Then he comes up with this Riothamus shit and now we are left with that very question: if Arthur (or Riothamus) didn’t win the Battle of Mount Badon, then WHO DID? And why was that person forgotten? Frankly, having examined the evidence, I am more inclined to believe Ashe’s earlier theory of Arthur as a sort of ad hoc Comes Brittaniorum than this new Arthur-as-Riothamus thing. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/28 "2004-04-12T18:10:34Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > Who has been cast to play the moistened bint who lobs the scimitar Excalibur at Arthur? > [@KGS](#): > > Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP HELP I’M BEING REPRESSED!! > [@Lamia](#): > > …And then a knight can come by on horseback and kill him! Ha ha!.. Right…this seals it. Forget Godwin’s Law, I now propose **Briston’s Law** : “As an online discussion about King Arthur grows longer, the probability of someone making _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_ jokes approaches one.” ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/29 "2004-04-12T20:12:34Z")
To be honest, I could care less if Jerry says the movie is based on the life and times of Bill Clinton. If the movie entertains me for two hours I’m not going to care. THis movie will be big, pretty, and full of 'splosions with a plot with many holes and historical inacuracies and that’s okay. It is directed by Antoine Fuqua who did an admirable job on Training Day and the writers have a decent enough resume as well (off the top of my head, Gladiator). Although this movie may entertain, I do happen to agree that if you’re getting your history lessons from a movie, you’re in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/30 "2004-04-12T23:14:17Z")
Quoth **C K Dexter Haven** : > [@](#): > > King Arthur to young Thomas Malory: Why, oh why, didn’t I notice that before? The boy’s name is Thomas… Of _course_ that’s Malory! Especially with all of the other references to _Mort d’Arthur_ throughout White’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Wolfian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/7ea924/32.png) [@Wolfian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolfian)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/31 "2004-04-13T00:01:27Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Side question: Has there ever actually been a good _serious_ film about King Arthur? _Holy Grail_ is, IMHO, not only a better movie but actually more historically and legendarily accurate than any other Arthur flick I can remember seeing! Merlin’s Shop of Mystical Wonders? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/32 "2004-04-13T02:27:27Z")
> [@Hal Briston](#): > > Right…this seals it. Forget Godwin’s Law, I now propose **Briston’s Law** : “As an online discussion about King Arthur grows longer, the probability of someone making _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_ jokes approaches one.” Frankly, I’d be disappointed in my fellow denizens of the 'Net if it took more than a few posts to get to the _Holy Grail_ jokes! > [@Wolfian](#): > > Merlin’s Shop of Mystical Wonders? Thank you, I had successfully blotted that one from my memory until now. That movie was a world of pain! ---
**Author:** ![manx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@manx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manx)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/33 "2004-04-13T13:49:37Z")
So, how come no one’s mentioned Disney’s _Sword in the Stone_? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/34 "2004-04-13T14:49:32Z")
What about the ninjas? There are ninjas in the movie, right? And the ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/35 "2004-04-13T14:51:34Z")
What about the ninjas? There are ninjas in the movie, right? And the Scarlet Pimpernel? Right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/36 "2004-04-13T18:00:00Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > When I am God Emperor, Jerry Bruckheimer will pay for his crimes. Pay dearly. One of my first acts upon deification will be to seize his wealth and use it to start the greatest film school the world has ever seen. Then I will divide the rest of it equally amongst the moviegoing public. I will keep Little Jerry himself on a leash in my throneroom and periodically force him to dance for my pleasure. Dance, Little Jerry, Dance, or you will taste the prod! Faster! FASTER! But he will never dance fast enough… That was funny. But now I have a strange desire to change my name to little jerry. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/37 "2004-04-13T19:30:38Z")
Saw the preview for this again last night (it was before _Hellboy_). I can’t decide whether or not the big orange gasoline-explosion fireballs will finally supplant Kevin Costner’s halfhearted pseudo-dialect in _Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves_ for top spot on the list of most irritating anachronisms in Big Hollywood Medieval Type Flicks. Depends on how many of them there are in the actual movie, I guess; if they did only a couple so they could stick them in the preview, that’s one thing, but if they’re all the way through the flick, the way Costner is, by necessity, a constant presence in _Robin Hood_, then we may have a new winner. Oh, and whoever designed Keira Knightley’s costume is clearly familiar with the various skins SCA types have created for their Sims characters. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/38 "2004-04-13T20:22:04Z")
> [@Wolfian](#): > > Merlin’s Shop of Mystical Wonders? Sir, you owe me one keyboard. (Ahh, the flying kitty of fury.) ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428/39 "2004-04-13T21:07:47Z")
_reads all preceding posts…_ Bloody peasants! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-arthur-jerry-bruckheimer-corrects-historians/239428.md?page=1)