# King Henry VIII's Hottest Queen **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 15, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-henry-viiis-hottest-queen/550296 "2010-08-15T01:16:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 3\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-henry-viiis-hottest-queen/550296/21 "2010-08-15T11:01:53Z")
It’s definitely NOT Jane Seymour. I admit that I have something of a fondness for Anne Boleyn, so perhaps this is personal bias speaking, but I’ve always thought she was such a boring and homely woman. That chin and that nose. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![GythaOgg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@GythaOgg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GythaOgg)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-henry-viiis-hottest-queen/550296/22 "2010-08-15T16:26:54Z")
> [@torie](#): > > I used both the portraits, which I just went and took a quick glance at to refresh myself, and contemporary descriptions to choose Anne Boleyn. Caherine Howard is hard to know, because most historians agree that we don’t have a 100% likeness of her, but we do have a portrait that is most likely her. Even the portraits of Anne Boleyn are copies of copies, and most made in Elizabeth I’s time, when Anne was no longer the Horrible Witch but Mother of the Queen. So those copies are probably more idealized than the originals. But almost all contemporary sources, even the less flattering ones, agree that despite being the “wrong” coloring for the time, she was an attractive and appealing woman. So ultimately, the prize goes to her. > > As for Anne Of Cleves’ portrait by Holbein, I’m pretty well convinced that it’s pretty accurate. It closely matches a later portrait of her that shows a thinner and older woman, but still the same arrangement of features. Holbein had nothing to gain and in fact a lot to lose by deceiving the king, and he was renown for his accurate portraiture. Considering the insane, delusional despot Henry had become by the time of his marriage to Anne, and the stupidly inane way he went to greet her, I think it’s more likely that she rejected him on sight, and the story flipped the moment he realized she was unhappy with his appearance. By all accounts, their first meeting was an awkward disaster all around. It is not at all outside Henry’s character to read that she wasn’t happy with his obesity and the ravages of syphilis, but convince himself that her unattractiveness was the problem. I think it’s most likely that Anne was a perfectly fine looking woman, judging by her portraits. > > Now, if you want HOT, check out Anne of Cleves’ sister Sybilla. I’ve loved this portrait ever since I discovered it a year ago. > [Sybilla Of Cleves.](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Cleves,Sybille.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D3886.0&usg=__5Q99HZg4-b6G0d8HQflp23-43dI=&h=600&w=405&sz=96&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=h2p-9OnFegZrXM:&tbnh=168&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAnne%2Bof%2BCleves%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D683%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=398&vpy=306&dur=2690&hovh=273&hovw=184&tx=87&ty=119&ei=NcNnTPKKDeqynAf76-HBBQ&oei=NcNnTPKKDeqynAf76-HBBQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0) On the other hand, several contemporary accounts describe Anne Boleyn as ‘not particularly good looking except for her eyes’ (paraphrased). So who knows. No modern historian seriously believes Henry had syphilis. He had excellent doctors who kept detailed records of his health, and there’s no indication he was given any of the standard treatments known then for the condition - unlike the French king at the time, Francis, who DID have syphilis and whom history records as having been treated for such. Henry had other chronic health problems, but that wasn’t one of them. There are other issues Henry may have had with Anne of Cleves. As noted, Holbein’s portrait was over-flattering - some experts say by painting her at a straight-on angle he minimized what some other portraits reveal to be a hooked or too-long nose. Also, Henry was used to wives who were very intelligent and well-educated and talented at things like dancing, music, writing poetry, witty conversation, etc. Anne could not speak English, had no skills whatsoever beyond sewing, and had been raised in a cultural backwater. It’s interesting to note that after the divorce, as Anne learned these skills, (which she did very quickly) Henry liked her better and better. ---
**Author:** ![torie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@torie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torie)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-henry-viiis-hottest-queen/550296/23 "2010-08-15T23:02:29Z")
> [@GythaOgg](#): > > > [@torie](#): > > > > I used both the portraits, which I just went and took a quick glance at to refresh myself, and contemporary descriptions to choose Anne Boleyn. Caherine Howard is hard to know, because most historians agree that we don’t have a 100% likeness of her, but we do have a portrait that is most likely her. Even the portraits of Anne Boleyn are copies of copies, and most made in Elizabeth I’s time, when Anne was no longer the Horrible Witch but Mother of the Queen. So those copies are probably more idealized than the originals. But almost all contemporary sources, even the less flattering ones, agree that despite being the “wrong” coloring for the time, she was an attractive and appealing woman. So ultimately, the prize goes to her. > > > > As for Anne Of Cleves’ portrait by Holbein, I’m pretty well convinced that it’s pretty accurate. It closely matches a later portrait of her that shows a thinner and older woman, but still the same arrangement of features. Holbein had nothing to gain and in fact a lot to lose by deceiving the king, and he was renown for his accurate portraiture. Considering the insane, delusional despot Henry had become by the time of his marriage to Anne, and the stupidly inane way he went to greet her, I think it’s more likely that she rejected him on sight, and the story flipped the moment he realized she was unhappy with his appearance. By all accounts, their first meeting was an awkward disaster all around. It is not at all outside Henry’s character to read that she wasn’t happy with his obesity and the ravages of syphilis, but convince himself that her unattractiveness was the problem. I think it’s most likely that Anne was a perfectly fine looking woman, judging by her portraits. > > > > Now, if you want HOT, check out Anne of Cleves’ sister Sybilla. I’ve loved this portrait ever since I discovered it a year ago. > > [Sybilla Of Cleves.](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/images/Cleves,Sybille.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D3886.0&usg=__5Q99HZg4-b6G0d8HQflp23-43dI=&h=600&w=405&sz=96&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=h2p-9OnFegZrXM:&tbnh=168&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAnne%2Bof%2BCleves%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D683%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=398&vpy=306&dur=2690&hovh=273&hovw=184&tx=87&ty=119&ei=NcNnTPKKDeqynAf76-HBBQ&oei=NcNnTPKKDeqynAf76-HBBQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:17,s:0) > > On the other hand, several contemporary accounts describe Anne Boleyn as ‘not particularly good looking except for her eyes’ (paraphrased). So who knows. > > No modern historian seriously believes Henry had syphilis. He had excellent doctors who kept detailed records of his health, and there’s no indication he was given any of the standard treatments known then for the condition - unlike the French king at the time, Francis, who DID have syphilis and whom history records as having been treated for such. Henry had other chronic health problems, but that wasn’t one of them. > > There are other issues Henry may have had with Anne of Cleves. As noted, Holbein’s portrait was over-flattering - some experts say by painting her at a straight-on angle he minimized what some other portraits reveal to be a hooked or too-long nose. Also, Henry was used to wives who were very intelligent and well-educated and talented at things like dancing, music, writing poetry, witty conversation, etc. Anne could not speak English, had no skills whatsoever beyond sewing, and had been raised in a cultural backwater. It’s interesting to note that after the divorce, as Anne learned these skills, (which she did very quickly) Henry liked her better and better. Those who say that Anne was unattractive either way exaggerate her flaws in an almost comical manner or emphasized that she was the wrong coloring. I think we may have considered her attractive in modern times, especially if her charisma was as great as they say. Elizabeth was said to look like her mother, despite having Henry’s coloring, and the Scroats portrait shows an attractive young woman. [Scroats portrait of Princess Elizabeth.](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.theslideprojector.com/images/art6/chapter4-domesticgenresandwomenpaintersinnortherneurope/elizabethI.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jessicazerbe.xanga.com/&usg=__8GZFIfRMu98jkXBqNeoFOQhLzhU=&h=432&w=325&sz=34&hl=en&start=0&tbnid=BEeONAxCCm-NXM:&tbnh=167&tbnw=133&prev=/images%3Fq%3Delizabeth%2BI%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D683%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=273&vpy=281&dur=1544&hovh=259&hovw=195&tx=76&ty=93&ei=xmpoTJPKDsT58Aac3s2tBA&oei=xmpoTJPKDsT58Aac3s2tBA&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0) I don’t think Holbein ever intended to purposely deceive the king. He would have had nothing to gain and in fact must have understood that the king’s anger would have been terrible. Henry had specifically ordered Holbein NOT to flatter the sisters. I wish we had his portrait of Amelia, painted at the same time. All I can find is a sketch he made that could be Amelia. It could shed more light on the situation. I don’t see why Holbein, an accurate and renown portraitist, would have purposely made Anne more attractive than she appeared, although it is true that the later portrait has a longer nose underneath the one that appears. Otherwise, the arrangements of the features are the same, even if the later portrait shows a less attractive woman due to ageing. If a long nose was Anne’s only physical flaw, she would have nonetheless been at least an average looking woman. What we have to consider is that regardless of whether the King had syphilis, he was certainly obese and bloated by injuries and other illnesses by that time. We also know that their first meeting was a complete _disaster_. Henry was inpatient to meet her, and arranged an embarrassing spectacle where he greeted her without telling her who he was. She was confused and embarrassed and must not have appeared as overjoyed at their meeting as he would have expected. This would have upset him and caused him to project all the issues on her, as nothing was ever the King’s fault. [An account of Henry greeting Anne.](http://englishhistory.net/tudor/pricleve.html) He also said she smelled, but Henry was more concerned with hygiene than most people of the time, and perhaps German standards of cleanliness were not good enough for him, but no one else seems to have noticed. It’s also true that they had little in common, but I think that Henry’s later affection for her is probably also explained by the fact that Henry loved nothing more than people who did exactly what he wanted, and was not angered more than by people who did not. Anne did exactly what he wanted, she stepped aside in favor of Katherine Howard. Henry could be quite gracious when everyone catered to him. In short, I think poor Anne got a bad rap. Her unattractiveness was probably exaggerated by the King for a variety of reasons. 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