# King James I, sponsor of the most perfect Bible translation, the KJV, was bisexual? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 10, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308 "2019-02-10T23:37:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/21 "2019-02-11T12:27:52Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Remember that this is the sponsor of the book that proves to American fundamentalists that Jesus spoke English with a Scottish accent and gives them all the reasons to hate the gays. A fascinating story, and one it was hard to sleep through, but one that asks, _ **“Does the Religious Right know about their boy, Jamey?” Discuss.** _ If they want to like the guy, they’ll find a way to make him acceptable. See [this troubling thread from last month](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=868250) about Trump and king Cyrus. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/22 "2019-02-11T12:45:16Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > As a statistical matter, if you assume that every person is straight, you’ll be FAR closer to being correct than if you assume that every person is gay. False dichotomy. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/23 "2019-02-11T13:17:13Z")
I have a bit of a thing for Liz Bonnin myself. As for James I, it seems we will never know for certain. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/24 "2019-02-11T13:55:48Z")
If we want to get back to your original point about James and the religious right. Even if we were to unearth some document about James loving to fondle Buckingham’s manhood and it became undeniable, I don’t think it would matter much. Obviously everyone knows about the ‘King James Version’ but it is largely divorced from ‘King James’ himself. Most would likely not be able to tell you the number after King James’s name. Finding out that he was gay may elicit a nod, but not some sort of cognitive dissonance. I don’t think that any of them think that James was actually more involved in the translation than simply saying ‘Make it so.’ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/25 "2019-02-11T14:33:39Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > The alternative is to assume every single person is straight, cutting all LGBT people off from their own historical context. False dichotomy. > [@senoy](#): > > If we want to get back to your original point about James and the religious right. Even if we were to unearth some document about James loving to fondle Buckingham’s manhood and it became undeniable, I don’t think it would matter much And I don’t see why it should matter. Suppose we assume that King James was gay/bisexual/transgender/non-binary/forsooth His Grace doth appear a little light in the royal loafers/whatever. Therefore - what? He should have directed the translators to leave Leviticus and Romans and the other passages out altogether? Added a footnote with the seventeenth-century equivalent of “jk lol”? He also seemed to think that the rule of the [monarchy was absolute](https://www.britannica.com/biography/James-I-king-of-England-and-Scotland). Which passages should he have had altered for that? The KJV is one of the milestones, not merely in Bible translation, but in the history of English prose. It has been hugely influential for 300 years. Who ordered the translation is kind of besides the point. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/26 "2019-02-11T15:13:24Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Conjectured, not probable. Certainly people said things, but that was common at the time. If you went by rumors and historical conjecture, pretty much every king or queen was homosexual. I think all of the queens had lesbian rumors. Charles I and II both jad rumors. And of course James. Were they true or just jealousy over not being the king or queens favorite? Moderns tend to have serious hangups about sex. We have a tendency to sexualize everything. Was James I very close with various men? No doubt. He was not a manly man either. Was he boning men? Who knows? He certainly had sex with women and had mistresses so it wasn’t just out of obligation. Was Buckingham a lover or just a close friend? I don’t think there’s a satisfactory answer. I sure wouldn’t bet the farm on it that he was straight. Seems more than just guesswork, and highly probable that he was gay. Researchers have an unusually large amount of letters from the British Library and the National Library of Scotland to cull over with his correspondence with three males in particular that were his favorites, but there were others. Although I’m not familiar with all of the expressions of the day, what little I’ve seen of his letters, straight men just don’t go around talking like that to other males. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/27 "2019-02-11T15:54:14Z")
Thank you for introducing me to Suzannah Lipscomb’s documentaries. Not only are they interesting, she is indeed very attractive. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/28 "2019-02-11T16:15:34Z")
Back when the gay rights movement, organizations would come up with lists of famous people who were supposedly gay. James I was on the lists back then. The lists, of course, were not necessarily definitive. Gay rights organizations had an interest in listing as many as possible, and the evidence could be flimsy or trying to apply a contemporaneous definition of gay to people in the past. But the idea of what was meant by “homosexual” changed over time (in the 20s, it described someone who we would now call transgender). There is some evidence James had liaisons with men, but until someone invents a time machine, it’s all speculation. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/29 "2019-02-11T16:55:31Z")
> [@Razncain](#): > > I sure wouldn’t bet the farm on it that he was straight. Seems more than just guesswork, and highly probable that he was gay. Researchers have an unusually large amount of letters from the British Library and the National Library of Scotland to cull over with his correspondence with three males in particular that were his favorites, but there were others. Although I’m not familiar with all of the expressions of the day, what little I’ve seen of his letters, straight men just don’t go around talking like that to other males. More accurately, straight men in 21st century whatever country you live in don’t go around talking like that to other males. Letter writing in the 17th century was a much different affair. Especially when you look at letters of relatives, the superlatives and protestations of love are very strange to modern readers. As a rule, emotions in letters tended to be spoken of as extremes. No one was ‘sorry that they were out when you called.’ You tended to be ‘lost in the tendrils of despair that they had missed the glorious presence of your company.’ I can’t dig through all of my 17th century books right now, but I grabbed a quick example from a letter John Donne (the great English poet) wrote to Robert Carr the bulk of which was that he wanted him to read a manuscript, but not show anyone else. Donne wasn’t rumored to love anyone other than his wife and theirs was widely seen as one of the great love stories. Nevertheless, he closed his letter to Carr with “Love me still thus far for your own sake, that when you withdraw your love from me you will find so many unworthinesses in me as you grow ashamed of having so long and so much such a thing as – your poor servant.” (Modern non-poetic translation - Continue loving me because if you stop loving me, you’ll see I was such a bad person that it will make you ashamed of how long you loved me.) Obviously, if I were to write such a thing to a friend in the 21st century US, people might think that my feelings toward him were more than simply friendship. In the 17th century though, such words toward non-sexual relationships were not necessarily common, but nor were they necessarily seen as romantic. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/30 "2019-02-11T18:51:38Z")
There is nothing special about the King James version of the bible in regard to the sin of homosexuality. The prohibitions are in the original greek and hebrew and every faithful translation has them. King James was not particularly involved in the translation and his sexual preferences would have no relevance. Anecdotally, when I was growing up the NIV was the much preferred translation, though I prefer the NAS. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/31 "2019-02-11T19:31:41Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > More accurately, straight men in 21st century whatever country you live in don’t go around talking like that to other males. Letter writing in the 17th century was a much different affair. Especially when you look at letters of relatives, the superlatives and protestations of love are very strange to modern readers. {snip} Yes, I remember when reading from one of my favorite 19th century authors, how bizarre for him to have signed off his letter to one of his brothers with the expression he gave, but realized that was a part of that time as well which was confirmed with some other research I did on it. While it wouldn’t surprise me certain expressions of the day such as the one you gave in your post, may indeed been common which you say was popular among relatives. But since his three favorite males weren’t relatives, minus Esme Stuart being his much older second cousin, is this still quite common among males to share these kind of sentiments and passion towards the same sex? I’m no expert in expressions and idioms or customs of that time period, and my interest doesn’t take me that far, but was it also customary for kings to be buried beside male favorites, and leave your wife out of the picture? If this brief biography [site](http://www.biographybase.com/biography/James_I_of_England.html) is correct, it says that some earlier historians questioned his sexual nature with a number of men, but that “Few modern historians cast any doubt on the King’s homosexuality…” And [wiki’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_relationships_of_James_VI_and_I) take on King James personal relationships. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/32 "2019-02-11T19:38:24Z")
> [@RobDog](#): > > Might I recommend to you the short documentaries of our own Philomena Cunk. This one is a good place to start, it features the highly-respected physicist Professor Brian Cox: > > [https://youtu.be/kLewiV4lYXk](https://youtu.be/kLewiV4lYXk) It is to laugh! It was I who introduced the brilliant Dr Cunk to the benighted masses of the SDMB. Or someone else did and I didn’t notice, being that I don’t usually notice other people. Cox is boring/special fun since he caught on to the joke right away. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/33 "2019-02-11T20:08:10Z")
Worsley had loads of evidence I don’t recall the details of because I was trying to sleep at the time (there’s a reason I put this in IMHO rather than GD) and it seemed damning enough, but because she is a Curator of the Royal Houses (History) or somesuch I don’t think she’d want to endanger her day job by making scurrilous claims about the previous occupants. She was mostly quite absolute, leaving very little wiggle room. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/34 "2019-02-11T20:50:32Z")
Pretty sure that King James I didn’t actually perform the actual translation of the Hebrew, Greek, et al texts into English, but rather he commissioned them to occur. Growing up in a rather fundamentalist church, I had many conversations as a teenager with older members of the church, who felt that the KJV was the only true translation of the bible and had no clue how translations occurred and thought that King James himself was divinely inspired to translate the bible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/35 "2019-02-11T21:16:11Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I am a straight cis-male and am no activist. My point was that his probable orientation, known by many of his countrymen then and today, is unknown by those who take “his” translation as the be-all-and-end-all and use it to persecute gays. James had seven children, and yes he had close friend/favorites but it’s really just a base canard. In any case, just about any other translation will give you the same result. Even if you dont translate it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/36 "2019-02-11T21:17:35Z")
> [@Razncain](#): > > I sure wouldn’t bet the farm on it that he was straight. Seems more than just guesswork, and highly probable that he was gay. Researchers have an unusually large amount of letters from the British Library and the National Library of Scotland to cull over with his correspondence with three males in particular that were his favorites, but there were others. Although I’m not familiar with all of the expressions of the day, what little I’ve seen of his letters, straight men just don’t go around talking like that to other males. They did in those days. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/37 "2019-02-11T21:18:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > It is to laugh! It was I who introduced the brilliant Dr Cunk to the benighted masses of the SDMB. Stupid people aren’t funny- there are too many of them. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/38 "2019-02-11T21:24:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > James had seven children, and yes he had close friend/favorites but it’s really just a base canard. Eight. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/39 "2019-02-11T21:40:31Z")
Per Wikipedia, showing the depths I’m willing to go to research this, “James’s wife Anne gave birth to seven live children, as well as suffering two stillbirths and at least three other miscarriages.” Like I said, the Father of his Country, and that is just his legitimate hetero performance, but in the OP I claimed he was bi. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308/40 "2019-02-11T22:44:23Z")
^^^ I’ve seen lists up to nine children, I believe the discrepancy is with two that were stillborn, one they named, the other they didn’t. In another list, both weren’t named. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-james-i-sponsor-of-the-most-perfect-bible-translation-the-kjv-was-bisexual/829308.md?page=3)