# King Juan Carlos vs Hugo Chavez **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964 "2007-11-10T22:23:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kitemaker\_chuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a88e4f/32.png) [@kitemaker\_chuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitemaker_chuck)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/1 "2007-11-10T22:23:55Z")
I just caught the very last bit of a news headline about some kind of international conference in Chile where King Juan Carlos told Hugo Chavez to "shut up’. Have any fellow Dopers heard anything about this? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/2 "2007-11-10T22:28:47Z")
[http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=105&sid=1290027](http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=105&sid=1290027) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/3 "2007-11-10T22:49:40Z")
BBC link: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7089131.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7089131.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/4 "2007-11-10T22:51:38Z")
Go Juan Carlos! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/5 "2007-11-10T22:59:49Z")
King Juan Carlos is the man. Regardless of one’s politics, it’s hard to deny that Chavez was being a royal pain in the ass - and good on the King for smacking him down. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/6 "2007-11-10T23:41:40Z")
Ha ha! It’s pretty funny. I was expecting him to say something like a command like “Callate” but he instead said, “Porque no te callas” which is still pretty funny. You can check out the video here > **[El Rey a Chávez: "¿Por qué no te callas?"](https://elpais.com/internacional/2007/11/10/actualidad/1194649213_850215.html)** > > El Rey se enfrenta a Chávez tras insistir el presidente venezolano en llamar "fascista" a Aznar ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/7 "2007-11-11T00:21:34Z")
See? European royalty is still useful for something. Good show, Your Majesty. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/8 "2007-11-11T01:14:48Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] It’s pretty funny. I was expecting him to say something like a command like “Callate” but he instead said, “Porque no te callas” which is still pretty funny. [/QUOTE] What’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/9 "2007-11-11T01:48:31Z")
The first one is literally “Shut Up!” The second one is, “Why don’t you shut up?” Also if you check out the link, I was sort of uttered as an aside, more to the audience than anything else. It came off to me as more of a move of commiserating with most of the people there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/10 "2007-11-11T02:47:46Z")
History will be kind to Juan Carlos. Franco bequeathed him what amounted to, or could have been, absolute power, but he chose to lead his country away from dictatorship toward liberal parliamentary democracy. Chavez’ place in history remains much harder to peg. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/11 "2007-11-11T03:04:01Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] History will be kind to Juan Carlos. Franco bequeathed him what amounted to, or could have been, absolute power, but he chose to lead his country away from dictatorship toward liberal parliamentary democracy. Chavez’ place in history remains much harder to peg. [/QUOTE] Some of the comments on the last linked article said that, what right does the king to act as a representative of the Spanish people, since he wasn´t elected, unlike Chavez. Perhaps bears considering as a measure of their moral fiber that Juan Carlos started from absolute power to setting forth a functional democracy, while Chavez started from democracy and is doing his damnest to gain absolute power. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/12 "2007-11-11T03:46:44Z")
[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe] The first one is literally “Shut Up!” The second one is, “Why don’t you shut up?” Also if you check out the link, I was sort of uttered as an aside, more to the audience than anything else. It came off to me as more of a move of commiserating with most of the people there. [/QUOTE] Spaniard here – as if there’s anyone left that didn’t know – and I can tell you there’s _more_ defiance in saying what The King did than there’s issuing a direct order. Nuances of the language really – and more specifically Castillian speak. What the King did was actually issue a _challenge_ as opposed to an _order_ (which he had no power of doing in said setting). Think of it as throwing your glove down in front of your adversary…as in “I’m calling you out, MF, what are you going to do about it?” Pretty ballsy stuff for a King to do…in fact, a first in JC’s reign. And, as a side point, before the **Carol Streams** of the SDMB get too wild, Zapatero himself was defending Aznar as well ATM (and got a thank you call from The Mini-me himself thanking him for doing so), saying that no matter what difference in ideology the two might have, what matters is that Aznar was a legitimately elected PM by the will of the Spanish people, thus Chavez, might differ all he wants but needs to remember (and respect) that it was Democracy that spoke at the time. Personally, I think they both rocked and Chavez sucked. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/13 "2007-11-11T04:00:57Z")
It seems to me that calling a Spaniard a fascist is in the same ballpark of assholery as calling a Jew a Nazi. The Spanish know better than most what fascism looks like, and ISTM that they may not appreciate the term being used lightly. ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/14 "2007-11-11T04:47:49Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] It seems to me that calling a Spaniard a fascist is in the same ballpark of assholery as calling a Jew a Nazi. The Spanish know better than most what fascism looks like, and ISTM that they may not appreciate the term being used lightly. [/QUOTE] Although I agree that it is a strong and ill-advised term to use in a country that suffered under fascism, a good many Spaniards, including Aznar’s father and grandfather, were falangists, or fascists. You can’t really say the same about Jews and Nazis. As someone with family connections to both Spain and Venezuela, I thought both the King came across as refreshingly honest, Zapatero as reasonable and sane, and both showed up Chavez for the embarrassing buffoon that he is. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/15 "2007-11-11T09:06:53Z")
[QUOTE=Martha] Although I agree that it is a strong and ill-advised term to use in a country that suffered under fascism, a good many Spaniards, including Aznar’s father and grandfather, were falangists, or fascists. [/quote] Furthermore, [three Falangist parties still survive in Spain,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falangists#Falangism_today) politically marginal though they are (and it was very silly of Chavez to associate Aznar with **them** even by implication). ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/16 "2007-11-11T09:59:59Z")
“Por que no te callas?” is what you would say to a drunkard who is embarrassing himself. Not too different from what was happening here. The imperative is not commonly used in this kind of situations, unless you are talking to your dog. “Por que no …” somehow implies that your target knows that doing what you are asking is the right thing to do. Still, quite a breach of protocol. A sign of how frustrating is everything around Chavez. That is his power, making his opposition loose their cool and do stupid things. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/17 "2007-11-11T10:57:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Some of the comments on the last linked article said that, what right does the king to act as a representative of the Spanish people, since he wasn´t elected, unlike Chavez. Surely the King of Spain is a representative of the Spanish people? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/18 "2007-11-11T13:31:25Z")
[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan] Surely the King of Spain is a representative of the Spanish people? [/QUOTE] Well yes, I´m arguing against that conception, that the King wasn´t elected, therefore he doesn´t have the democratic shroud of worthiness as a representative of his country that should be bestowed in, for example, Chavez. Not my position, but that of some of the comments on the linked El Diario article. On proof reading, and to avoid confusions, yes, my opinion is that the King of Spain is a very valid representative of the Spanish people. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/19 "2007-11-11T13:42:55Z")
It wasn’t a stupid thing to do at all. It was excellent. Go Juan Carlos! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964/20 "2007-11-11T18:14:20Z")
[the hollow men] VOCATIONAL GUIDANCE COUNSELOR: And I have determined that the ideal job for you is . . . King of Spain! [/thm] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/king-juan-carlos-vs-hugo-chavez/425964.md?page=2)