# Kings, Queens, and Jacks **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2000, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715 "2000-10-12T20:10:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![buffalogal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@buffalogal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buffalogal)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/1 "2000-10-12T20:10:01Z")
(I’m new here and hope this has not been covered before.) Seems that I heard or read somewhere that in a deck of cards, the face cards are actually modeled after real people. Recently I saw a portrait of Henry VIII that reminded me of a playing card. ---
**Author:** ![MJH2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@MJH2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MJH2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/2 "2000-10-12T20:16:03Z")
Welcome, **buffalogal**! Which card looked like Henry VIII to you? I had not heard of this before, but I suppose it’s possible. Playing cards are derived from the Tarot deck, and the 15th-century Visconti-Sforza Tarot deck actually depicts contemporaries of the two families (V & Sf). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Lao](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dr.Lao](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Lao)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/3 "2000-10-12T20:30:53Z")
Your answer is apparently not. I got that from [http://www.snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com) . From the article on playing cards: > [@](#): > > In summary, the court cards in decks of playing cards were not initially identified by name. The assignation of identities to the kings (as well as the queens and knaves) was a temporary practice unique to French card masters that began around the mid-15th century, was not standardized for some time, and was discontinued at the end of the 18th century. The royal figures on modern playing cards no more represent specific persons than do the kings and queens in chess sets. Welcome to the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/4 "2000-10-12T20:32:36Z")
Arrgh, I wish I had photographic memory. I saw a very interesting page a couple of weeks ago about the history of playing cards. Very interesting how the pictures have evolved over the years. As I recall, they were referred to as kings of different countries, but not specific kings. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Sheepshead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@Mr.Sheepshead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Sheepshead)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/5 "2000-10-12T20:36:12Z")
Perhaps [this](http://www.pagat.com/ipcs/history.html) was the page you saw, **Badtz**? There’s oodles of other good card info there too (I don’t think they have anything about sheepshead though ☹ )… ---
**Author:** ![buffalogal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@buffalogal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buffalogal)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/6 "2000-10-12T21:10:07Z")
I’m duly impressed. The picture of Henry VIII I referred to was one by Holbein. I didn’t mean to say that a particular playing card looked just like him. Rather, the pose, costume, and artistic style reminded me of a face card. (And, believe it or not, I can’t find a deck of cards in the house. Well, actually, I didn’t look too hard.) Thanks for all the info. I’ll be visiting here often. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2000, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/7 "2000-10-12T23:40:04Z")
Wow! A thread that combines my habit of collecting playing cards with my studies in Tudor England! **buffalogal** , which Holbein portrait of Henry VIII are you talking about? (There are several.) I have a feeling that you are referring to the one in the National Portrait Gallery in London. (OK, bad cite. I can’t remember the date off the top of my head and all my history books are in my wife’s flat.) It does bear a resemblance to the King of hearts. ---
**Author:** ![buffalogal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@buffalogal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buffalogal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2000, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/8 "2000-10-13T01:32:32Z")
The particular portrait I’m referring to is in Madrid in the Thyssen Collection. Here’s one place you can see it: [http://www.museothyssen.org/england/obras\_m/obram\_10.htm](http://www.museothyssen.org/england/obras_m/obram_10.htm) ---
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2000, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/9 "2000-10-13T17:41:01Z")
I read that the king card WAS specifically modelled after Henry VIII. I got some cheap packs of old cards some years ago and did a comparative study of variations in the flower being held by the queens, the kinds of swords held, and so forth, and which ones were in profile and which frontal. This last feature seems to never change and has led to the expression, “One-eyed Jacks.” I can’t find my research on this mysterious matter of the face cards and anyway would like to know their intriguing details and what each type of flower, sword, and so forth actually symbolized. Also, what was a Jack? Is he the same as the Knave who stoled the tarts? Why would the Knave of Hearts steal some tarts anyway? “The king was in the counting house, counting out his money; the queen was in the parlor, eating bread and honey. The maid was in the back yard hanging up the clothes, when along came a blackbird and hopped upon her nose.” What does this mean? Why were there a king, a queen, and a maid instead of a knave? ---
**Author:** ![buffalogal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@buffalogal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buffalogal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/10 "2000-10-13T17:59:07Z")
I wish you could remember where you read that Henry VIII was a model for the card. The reason I brought all this up is because next week I’m talking to my son’s class about kings and queens in portraiture and I thought the connection to playing cards would interest them. (It interests ME!) ---
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2000, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/11 "2000-10-13T18:13:43Z")
Just tell them I said so. And don’t forget to show them the magnificent portrait of the Coronation of King Gustav III of Sweden. I got a copy of part of it on a postcard in an old antique shop, but I have no scanner to send it. Put in Gustav III on the internet and it will probably be there. You can’t go wrong with David’s portrait of Napoleon on a horse that is rearing up (when actually Napoleon rode around on a donkey or was it a mule).How about Roman emperors on coins? Type in Coins, or Roman emperors and sooner or later the sites will turn up. How about Alma-Tadema’s incredibly ornate picture of the Festival of Heliogabalus, the Roman emperor who almost (or maybe actually did) smother his guests under loads of rose flowers. No show of king portraits would be complete without Hyacinth Rigaud’s picture of Louis XIV. Or the Coronation of Napoleon, but I forgot who did that, maybe David. Good luck. (I know I found the Henry VIII and some other sources for the cards on the internet, just by putting in Playing Cards I think it was). ---
**Author:** ![buffalogal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@buffalogal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buffalogal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2000, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/12 "2000-10-13T18:23:33Z")
Too much! Too much! I feel like I’m being suffocated under a pile of roses myself. I only have about 15 minutes to talk to them anyway. Thanks for all the info. I’ll poke around the internet a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2000, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kings-queens-and-jacks/36715/13 "2000-10-13T18:32:25Z")
Nope, Mr. Sheepshead, that’s not the page I saw - it was devoted to ‘typical’ playing cards, going back to the first ones that used the King, Queen, Jack hiearchy.