# Kinks a sgood as the beatles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 19, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613 "2016-04-19T00:59:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/61 "2016-04-20T23:21:45Z")
@ Wordman, Thanks for that link… I think he’s right about the capo… but having seen the Stones, I can tell you, Richards didn’t use a capo on that song when I saw him (I never did either)… but the capo is the way to go for ease, One thing the guy misses is the “pluck” or rather a “pull-off” technique (as a player, I assume you know what I mean) that Richard’s uses. Add that and you’ve got it all. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/62 "2016-04-20T23:31:47Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > It was the Stones wont to say this. They did it for 8 years, following the Beatles everywhere they went and saying “Look we’re the bad ones”. I don’t think it testifies to “heavyness.” \*\* Ambition maybe. I never liked monkey man\*\*. Obviously you are not a musician… so you’ll never ‘get’ it. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/63 "2016-04-21T01:06:13Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > Obviously you are not a musician… so you’ll never ‘get’ it. I play, and I love the stones. Is it the song I don’t get? i think I get the Stones. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/64 "2016-04-21T01:15:23Z")
I think the rivalry between the Beatles and Stones is overblown; the groups seemed to like each other personally. And remember – it was George Harrison who was instrumental in getting the Stones a record contract: After Decca records realized that guitar bands were _not_ on the way out, they were desperate for an act. An executive ran into Harrison and asked him about good but unsigned acts, and Harrison mentioned the Stones. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/65 "2016-04-21T01:29:02Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I play, and I love the stones. Is it the song I don’t get? i think I get the Stones. My apologies. My .02: listen carefully to the entirety of Let It Bleed-and-Sticky Fingers… the latter is an expansion of LIB - nearly all the songs are drug oriented themes- a cry for help that is true emotion… and amazing music. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/66 "2016-04-21T01:33:48Z")
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**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/67 "2016-04-21T01:35:45Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I play, and I love the stones. Is it the song I don’t get? i think I get the Stones. I think **btcg** is just saying that Keith Richards has a number of riffs that are “guitar player’s” riff. In addition to sounding cool, they are fun to play. His Open G stuff has countless examples, and Monkey Man is fun riff to play, too. I tend to think of Sticky Fingers in the same breath as Exile. They were done pretty close together, I think some of Sticky was done at Nell Cote, too. ETA: looks like no, it was mostly done at Muscle Shoals. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/68 "2016-04-21T02:07:03Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > I think **btcg** is just saying that Keith Richards has a number of riffs that are “guitar player’s” riff. In addition to sounding cool, they are fun to play. His Open G stuff has countless examples, and Monkey Man is fun riff to play, too. > > I tend to think of Sticky Fingers in the same breath as Exile. They were done pretty close together, I think some of Sticky was done at Nell Cote, too. ETA: looks like no, it was mostly done at Muscle Shoals. Indeed… "guitar players’ riffs… AND melodies. I was in 9th grade when Sticky Fingers came out, and in LOVE with my acoustic guitar. I figured out all the songs (it’s a heavily acoustic album); the hardest part being the words to Sister Morphine… but after scratching the heck outta my album, I did it. As to Exile… to me, it’s not so much in the style of Let It Bleed and Sticky Fingers: I loved it when Keith played like that. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/69 "2016-04-21T02:14:38Z")
@ Wordman: I read an interesting interview of Charlie Watts in Creem around the time SF came out. The highlights: Mick Taylor’s biggest issue with the band was Keith’s insistence on playing all the guitar parts on the albums. -and- Watts’ was asked: What is the secret of the Rolling Stones? Watts: “Well, we know that there are a lot of better musicians than we are out there… but; we always have a good song to play, and when you have a good song to play, it makes you sound ten times better.” True wisdom! ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/70 "2016-04-21T04:23:22Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > My apologies. > > My .02: listen carefully to the entirety of Let It Bleed-and-Sticky Fingers… the latter is an expansion of LIB - nearly all the songs are drug oriented themes- a cry for help that is true emotion… and amazing music. I love the tunes but I feel like I can listen to the Stones in my head almost without even putting it on. Which may make me value it less for rediscovery I admit. Unless I’m looking at a doc like Crossfire hurricane which I just watched yesterday. Songs don’t have to be druggy to be great do they? This is weird but “Monkey Man” actually means gay man, at least if you’re talking about black slang used in the blues that the stones were drawing from, the 30s and 40s. It doesn’t mean drugs AFIK. Speaking of the doc Bill Wyman said this: Charlie follows Keith and is a little behind the beat, and Bill stays a little ahead. It can all fall apart easily but this is what makes it great. I’ll have to take his word for it. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/71 "2016-04-21T04:29:12Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I love the tunes but I feel like I can listen to the Stones in my head almost without even putting it on. Which may make me value it less for rediscovery I admit. Unless I’m looking at a doc like Crossfire hurricane which I just watched yesterday. > > Songs don’t have to be druggy to be great do they? This is weird but “Monkey Man” actually means gay man, at least if you’re talking about black slang used in the blues that the stones were drawing from, the 30s and 40s. It doesn’t mean drugs AFIK. > > Speaking of the doc Bill Wyman said this: Charlie follows Keith and is a little behind the beat, and Bill stays a little ahead. It can all fall apart easily but this is what makes it great. I’ll have to take his word for it. Monkey Man means junkie, guy. Oh, and as to being a bit behind… listen to Midnight Rambler, where the drums and bass are slightly behind near the end of the song, and then they tighten up, and pull it ‘in the pocket’… truly wonderful blues. Midnight Rambler is one of THE greatest blues tunes ever. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/72 "2016-04-21T04:48:03Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Wow, I wouldn’t tag those kinks songs as the profound ones. They have meant the same thing since day one. If we’re going by those three songs: I’ll take Mean Mr Mustard. How do you know what it means anyway? It’s oblique catchy and great. Those Kinks numbers are didactic, cutesy and not so catchy at all. “Oblique” stops being a virtue at the point where you loudly deny that a song is about what it’s quite obviously about (“Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds,” for example). “Oblique” is when you put a Rohrshach blot in a canvas, agree with the critics who say it’s about hegemony and white privilege, and make fun of the people who say it looks like a guy with a bloody nose just sneezed. I’ll take the guy who says what he means the first time out, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/73 "2016-04-21T04:55:47Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > “Oblique” stops being a virtue at the point where you loudly deny that a song is about what it’s quite obviously about (“Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds,” for example). “Oblique” is when you put a Rohrshach blot in a canvas, agree with the critics who say it’s about hegemony and white privilege, and make fun of the people who say it looks like a guy with a bloody nose just sneezed. I’ll take the guy who says what he means the first time out, thank you. Very, very true. I think Drad is a polemic; and he simply cannot help himself. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/74 "2016-04-21T05:04:25Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > Monkey Man means junkie, guy. > > Oh, and as to being a bit behind… listen to Midnight Rambler, where the drums and bass are slightly behind near the end of the song, and then they tighten up, and pull it ‘in the pocket’… truly wonderful blues. Midnight Rambler is one of THE greatest blues tunes ever. > **[Hellmann%252C%2520Jr%2520-%2520I%2527m%2520a%2520Monkey%2520-%2520The%2520Influence%2520of%2520the%2520Black%2520Blues%2520Argot%2520on%2520the%2520Rolling%2520Stones.pdf](https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/media/0558/Hellmann%252C%2520Jr%2520-%2520I%2527m%2520a%2520Monkey%2520-%2520The%2520Influence%2520of%2520the%2520Black%2520Blues%2520Argot%2520on%2520the%2520Rolling%2520Stones.pdf)** In the blues it appears not to mean a drug addict. Maybe an effeminate man or a light skinned west Indian man, or a back door man. It’s not necessary for Mick to be singing or not singing about drugs is it?. It’s just a lyric. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/75 "2016-04-21T05:07:01Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > “Oblique” stops being a virtue at the point where you loudly deny that a song is about what it’s quite obviously about (“Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds,” for example). “Oblique” is when you put a Rohrshach blot in a canvas, agree with the critics who say it’s about hegemony and white privilege, and make fun of the people who say it looks like a guy with a bloody nose just sneezed. I’ll take the guy who says what he means the first time out, thank you. I take it you’re talking to me. Can you say what you’re talking about? In English please. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/76 "2016-04-21T05:10:56Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > Very, very true. I think Drad is a polemic; and he simply cannot help himself. Like you understood what he said. I get it. You like things to be nailed down good. You say it’s about drugs, I’d say it’s druggy and leave it at that. Why is it important? ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/77 "2016-04-21T05:19:28Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Like you understood what he said. > > I get it. You like things to be nailed down good. You say it’s about drugs, I’d say it’s druggy and leave it at that. Why is it important? Drad, You’re the one who doesn’t ‘get it.’ Look… stop and think before you speak (as I believe you do this when interacting with people) or post. I think people (myself included) will overlook your previous comments… just use your common sense. A kind word does a long way, sir. Oh: and I said the songs were a cry for help… I did not glorify the use of drugs… rather, the music. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/78 "2016-04-21T05:22:31Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > This is weird but “Monkey Man” actually means gay man, at least if you’re talking about black slang used in the blues that the stones were drawing from, the 30s and 40s. It doesn’t mean drugs AFIK. Well, that’s not how I know the term from blues. (I’m not commenting on the meaning of the Stones lyric.) I’ve typically heard it in blues as a man who is, basically, is what we would call today “whipped,” i.e. controlled/subservient to his girlfriend/wife. See for example [Willie Dixon’s “Ain’t Gonna Be Your Monkey Man”](http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/willie_dixon/i_aint_gonna_be_your_monkey_man.html). Or [Farewell to You Baby](https://plus.google.com/100894309991174353220/posts/jhdE8xruEop) by Carl Martin. But the gay meaning is out there, too. It doesn’t seem to be a phrase that has one absolutely fixed meaning. ETA: Sorry–it looks like a lot of conversation has happened since I started typing up this response and gotten back to it. Most of the meanings of “monkey man” have been covered. I personally don’t think the Stones were necessarily using one of these meanings, but rather liked the old bluesy phrase and imbued it with their own meaning (or no meaning, just for color) in the lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/79 "2016-04-21T05:37:11Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, that’s not how I know the term from blues. (I’m not commenting on the meaning of the Stones lyric.) I’ve typically heard it in blues as a man who is, basically, is what we would call today “whipped,” i.e. controlled/subservient to his girlfriend/wife. See for example [Willie Dixon’s “Ain’t Gonna Be Your Monkey Man”](http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/willie_dixon/i_aint_gonna_be_your_monkey_man.html). Or [Farewell to You Baby](https://plus.google.com/100894309991174353220/posts/jhdE8xruEop) by Carl Martin. But the gay meaning is out there, too. It doesn’t seem to be a phrase that has one absolutely fixed meaning. > > ETA: Sorry–it looks like a lot of conversation has happened since I started typing up this response and gotten back to it. Most of the meanings of “monkey man” have been covered. I personally don’t think the Stones were necessarily using one of these meanings, but rather liked the old bluesy phrase and imbued it with their own meaning (or no meaning, just for color) in the lyrics. **I’m a fleabit peanut monkey All my friends are junkies That’s not really true I’m a cold Italian pizza I could use a lemon squeezer Would you do? But I’ve been bit and I’ve been tossed around By every she-rat in this town Have you, babe? Well, I am just a monkey man I’m glad you are a monkey woman too** I think the meaning is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/80 "2016-04-21T05:42:49Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > **I’m a fleabit peanut monkey > All my friends are junkies > That’s not really true > I’m a cold Italian pizza > I could use a lemon squeezer > Would you do? > But I’ve been bit and I’ve been tossed around > By every she-rat in this town > Have you, babe? > Well, I am just a monkey man > I’m glad you are a monkey woman too** > I think the meaning is pretty clear. You know, I’m not disagreeing with you. (But I think we have two different ideas of what constitutes “clear meaning.” I think the lyrics are more of the impressionistic rather than explicit sort.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613.md?page=5)