# Kinks a sgood as the beatles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 19, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613 "2016-04-19T00:59:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/81 "2016-04-21T05:50:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > You know, I’m not disagreeing with you. (But I think we have two different ideas of what constitutes “clear meaning.” I think the lyrics are more of the impressionistic rather than explicit sort.) I apologize… I was just tired of the absurdity of the denial and intellectual dishonesty going on in this argument. It’s common knowledge that Keith has had a serious heroin addiction for many years. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/82 "2016-04-21T05:53:34Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > I apologize… I was just tired of the absurdity of the denial and intellectual dishonesty going on in this argument. It’s common knowledge that Keith has had a serious heroin addiction for many years. While that is true, I feel the lyrics are more a series of images and word salad of bluesy phrases like “monkey man” and “lemon squeezer” that go well together that don’t necessarily mean something coherent. Ear of the listener kind of stuff. ETA: And, to be clear, my response on the meaning of the term “monkey man” was limited to the comment about it meaning a gay man in blues songs. The Stones were clearly, at least to me, not using that meaning in the song, but rather the phrase to evoke a bluesy argot. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/83 "2016-04-21T06:00:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > While that is true, I feel the lyrics are more a series of images and word salad of bluesy phrases like “monkey man” and “lemon squeezer” that go well together that don’t necessarily mean something coherent. Ear of the listener kind of stuff. I hear more sex than drugs in it myself, but it can certainly be about drugs. Personally, I don’t think it’s about anything specific. I’ve gotta smile… I think "lemon squeezer’ just might mean the same thing as Zepp’s “Lemon Song.” ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/84 "2016-04-21T06:03:04Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > While that is true, I feel the lyrics are more a series of images and word salad of bluesy phrases like “monkey man” and “lemon squeezer” that go well together that don’t necessarily mean something coherent. Ear of the listener kind of stuff. > > ETA: And, to be clear, my response on the meaning of the term “monkey man” was limited to the comment about it meaning a gay man in blues songs. The Stones were clearly, at least to me, not using that meaning in the song, but rather the phrase to evoke a bluesy argot. Gotta smile; Lemon Squeezer just might be akin to Zep’s ‘Lemon Song.’ Maybe Keith 'Fell out of bed." 😃 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/85 "2016-04-21T06:04:28Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > Drad, > > You’re the one who doesn’t ‘get it.’ > > Look… stop and think before you speak (as I believe you do this when interacting with people) or post. I think people (myself included) will overlook your previous comments… just use your common sense. A kind word does a long way, sir. > > Oh: and I said the songs were a cry for help… I did not glorify the use of drugs… rather, the music. Don’t get what? I’m making measured comments. Nothing bad. I don’t need anyone to overlook them. The reason I mentioned the meaning of monkey man is you were placing this drug meaning where I think it’s more impressionistic as Puly said. Maybe you’ll listen to him. I certainly didn’t say you were glorifying them, and I hope you don’t take it that way, but I got a sense of romanticizing it from your post. For me I think that the Stones were not expressing great pain over drug addiction, but were using the imagery to make really timely decadent, funky records to sell to an audience. Keith was of course an addict. Mick, the lyricist in question, was not ever a junkie or out of control in anything he ever did. The lyrics to the song are not explicitly about anything except a really decadent, druggy, sexualized situation, to me, anyway. It brings up my whole point about obliqueness. It makes the song better, not worse, to me. I don’t mean to offend but only discuss. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/86 "2016-04-21T06:13:03Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Don’t get what? > I’m making measured comments. Nothing bad. I don’t need anyone to overlook them. > > The reason I mentioned the meaning of monkey man is you were placing this drug meaning where I think it’s more impressionistic as Puly said. Maybe you’ll listen to him. I certainly didn’t say you were glorifying them, and I hope you don’t take it that way, but I got a sense of romanticizing it from your post. For me I think that the Stones were not expressing great pain over drug addiction, but were using the imagery to make really timely decadent, funky records to sell to an audience. Keith was of course an addict. Mick, the lyricist in question, was not ever a junkie or out of control in anything he ever did. > > The lyrics to the song are not explicitly about anything except a really decadent, druggy, sexualized situation, to me, anyway. It brings up my whole point about obliqueness. It makes the song better, not worse, to me. I don’t mean to offend but only discuss. Look, we’re not analyzing Shakespeare. It’s not that hard to understand what the song means. The issue is, sometimes your posts are distasteful. Just scale it back, guy. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/87 "2016-04-21T06:17:08Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > Look, we’re not analyzing Shakespeare. It’s not that hard to understand what the song means. > > The issue is, sometimes your posts are distasteful. Just scale it back, guy. OK, let me mediate here. While **drad** can get a bit, um, passionate about his viewpoint, I do agree with him here. I think the lyrics are intentionally vague and, like I said, impressionistic. I get more a “sex” vibe than “drugs” vibe with them, but drugs are certainly a valid interpretation. I personally don’t think this song was written with a singular meaning, or even any meaning, in mind, but rather is a collection of images, sounds, and phrases that sound pretty cool together. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/88 "2016-04-21T06:22:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > OK, let me mediate here. While **drad** can get a bit, um, passionate about his viewpoint, I do agree with him here. I think the lyrics are intentionally vague and, like I said, impressionistic. I get more a “sex” vibe than “drugs” vibe with them, but drugs are certainly a valid interpretation. I personally don’t think this song was written with a singular meaning, or even any meaning, in mind, but rather is a collection of images, sounds, and phrases that sound pretty cool together. I’m sorry… but having an understanding of the actual meaning of impressionism via the work of the masters of that period, it’s a bit absurd to compare Keith’s lyrics to impressionism. We’re not analyzing Shakespeare, guys. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/89 "2016-04-21T06:25:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > OK, let me mediate here. While **drad** can get a bit, um, passionate about his viewpoint, I do agree with him here. I think the lyrics are intentionally vague and, like I said, impressionistic. I get more a “sex” vibe than “drugs” vibe with them, but drugs are certainly a valid interpretation. I personally don’t think this song was written with a singular meaning, or even any meaning, in mind, but rather is a collection of images, sounds, and phrases that sound pretty cool together. So… you’re saying Keith is possibly ‘coming out’ via the song and thus, is glad he has the company of a lesbian. Ooookay. ---
**Author:** ![btcg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@btcg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/btcg)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/90 "2016-04-21T06:29:25Z")
Sorry guys… but that’s enough for me. Thanks though, I’m still laughing!!! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/91 "2016-04-21T14:25:30Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > So… you’re saying Keith is possibly ‘coming out’ via the song and thus, is glad he has the company of a lesbian. > > Ooookay. Um, no. Not sure how you get any of that from my post. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/92 "2016-04-21T17:19:55Z")
> [@btcg](#): > > Look, we’re not analyzing Shakespeare. It’s not that hard to understand what the song means. > > The issue is, sometimes your posts are distasteful. Just scale it back, guy. “Distasteful”? Are you being a little reactive? At what point? You said it was obviously about something and everyone who says otherwise should shut up. Who’s taking it seriously? It’s just a song. A bunch of blues lyrics and other things jumbled in to make a trendy song. If you asked Jagger if it was a drug song he would say, as any artist should when asked to pin down his work like that, “Whatever you need dude” You have this idea that the Stones LPs are this suite of songs about the ravages of drug addiction or something. Keith(and not mick at all) was a rich gentleman junkie, who never had a problem until he tried to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Annoying\_Buzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/93 "2016-04-26T05:53:55Z")
> [@Meurglys](#): > > That was probably Jim Rodford. who’s quite small but not actually a midget. He played with the Kinks for almost 20 years and is currently one of the reformed Zombies. Still touring as far as I know. > I’ve spoken to him at a couple of Zombies gigs; nice bloke. Is that who they mean when they refer to “The Electric Dwarf” in Long Distance? Add me to the list of Kinks fans who just don’t see them as coming close to the Beatles. In the space of just 6 years, the depth, complexity and variety of the Beatles’ music evolved at an incredible pace; they were trying anything they could think of and doing really well with most of it. The Kinks had something that worked great and just stuck with it; the 80s Kinks use more synthesizers and sing about video stores, but they weren’t such a radically different band from the 70s or 60s Kinks, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/94 "2016-04-26T11:44:11Z")
Couldn’t rule it out, but then I guess you’d have to match the other names in the verse to the rest of the group. I don’t know enough to say if that’s at all feasible. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/95 "2016-04-26T12:26:19Z")
> [@Annoying\_Buzz](#): > > Add me to the list of Kinks fans who just don’t see them as coming close to the Beatles. In the space of just 6 years, the depth, complexity and variety of the Beatles’ music evolved at an incredible pace; they were trying anything they could think of and doing really well with most of it. The Kinks had something that worked great and just stuck with it; the 80s Kinks use more synthesizers and sing about video stores, but they weren’t such a radically different band from the 70s or 60s Kinks, IMO. I don’t think this is fair to the Kinks. It makes it sound like they never experimented or evolved past their early sound, when certainly they did, especially within those same six years that the Beatles were doing so. (Listen to the variety of styles on _Face to Face_ or _Something Else_.) The Kinks are credited with recording “the first Western rock song to integrate Indian raga sounds” on “[See My Friends](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/See_My_Friends).” It’s true, the Beatles “evolved at an incredible pace; they were trying anything they could think of and doing really well with most of it.” They had the advantage of a first-rate producer, a large budget, and the time to experiment with the recording studio without the distraction of touring. While it doesn’t make them as good as the Beatles, it makes the Kinks’ accomplishments during that same period more impressive on their own terms when you think of the quality, variety, and ambition of their output during that period being written and, after a certain point, produced, mainly by Ray. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/96 "2016-04-29T03:10:33Z")
The Kinks are less exposed than the Beatles, so often I am less likely to be tired of their songs. I don’t enjoy all their material, but the same goes for the Beatles. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/97 "2016-04-29T11:43:42Z")
This thread has lingered for a bit, so I will add a comment from an off-board conversation I was having with another Doper: a big issue, unfortunately, is that Ray Davies’ voice is okay at best. Having the vocal instruments that the Beatles had opened up options and enabled musical statements that the Kinks simply didn’t have available. Same with guitar. I have never been a big champion of Harrison as a lead player, but as the guy adding “spice chords” on top of John’s basic rhythm chords? Unmatched! Again, something simply not available to Dave Davies. Ray’s songwriting is top shelf. But they had built in limits that the Beatles didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/98 "2016-04-29T19:29:05Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > This thread has lingered for a bit, so I will add a comment from an off-board conversation I was having with another Doper: a big issue, unfortunately, is that Ray Davies’ voice is okay at best. Having the vocal instruments that the Beatles had opened up options and enabled musical statements that the Kinks simply didn’t have available. > > Same with guitar. I have never been a big champion of Harrison as a lead player, but as the guy adding “spice chords” on top of John’s basic rhythm chords? Unmatched! Again, something simply not available to Dave Davies. > > Ray’s songwriting is top shelf. But they had built in limits that the Beatles didn’t. I’m a huge Kinks fan, but I really can’t disagree with this assessment. Not to dis other members of the band, but The Kinks begin and end with Ray Davies for the most part. Writer, conception originator, singer. There really is no serious competition to the Beatles, in terms of talent, songwriting, creativity, experimentation, evolution, etc. The task gets much harder if you limit a timeframe to a decade worth of work. As much as I like the Kinks or the Who or Queen, I can’t really rank them with the Fab Four. The Stones? Not even close. I just got done listening to their first 10 albums or so on Spotify. Yeah, some good songs in there, but they aren’t in the same ballpark as the Beatles… or the Kinks, for that matter. IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/99 "2016-04-30T08:48:17Z")
My department just spent £5000 in the last six months for me to travel to give papers on the Kinks at various conferences (next one will be in Paris!). I’m currently on study leave/sabbatical to finish a book on the Kinks (and a chapter for another collection). I’m also being loaned out to our Fine Arts department, who are in the process of validating a new course in Popular Music (course = major in US lingo) cos the department chair over there wants a coupla lectures out of me on the Kinks for their Intro module; negotiations underway for me to lead an entire upper-level module on the band itself probably in the 2018-19 or 2019-2020 academic year. So, in my experience at least, the Kinks have been very, very good to _me_. 🙂 and one hopes to persuade Ray to sign my New Zealand pressing of _Village Green Preservation Society_ when I see him up at the Hornsey Town Hall in June. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613/100 "2016-05-01T03:04:56Z")
that sounds like a great job! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kinks-a-sgood-as-the-beatles/752613.md?page=6)