# Kirkland1244, you don't seem to be getting it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437 "2002-04-08T05:16:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/41 "2002-04-08T18:59:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*Baptists aren’t Christians. > > But you’re right. I apologize for including them on the list. \*\* And how many times have I pointed out to you good Baptist Christians such as Jimmy and Rosalyn Carter? Get bent. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/42 "2002-04-08T19:01:24Z")
**Kirk** , who are Christians? When did you become the arbiter of Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![ummm.yeahh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ummm.yeahh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ummm.yeahh)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/43 "2002-04-08T19:01:42Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > Fundamentalists, baptists, people like TheRyan are evil and descrinimatory. They deserve to be treated as such. \*\* **Kirkland** I am a Christian. I’ll concede that there are many Christians that are extremely judgemental and critical of others. I have no defense for that. But the viscousness with which you attack makes me wonder what the difference is between you and the Fundies you enjoy bashing. No one in here is going to agree with everyone else. As a Christian I hold certain views, but as I have seen others in these threads do, I respect others opinions. I respect your opinion. What makes these forums so great is that I know if I treat others with respect, though I may disagree greatly with their views, then I can expect the same back. In my **opinion** you should play by these rules or don’t play at all. I just don’t know how you can justify calling TheRyan discriminatory when you yourself are the first to fling mud. Mud-slinging is mud-slinging no matter what side of the fence you are on. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/44 "2002-04-08T19:02:21Z")
**Kirkland** , I have a question for you. Before I ask it, however, I do want to make one thing clear. I am not here to flame you, and I expect the same courtesy from you. In this thread and a couple of others, ([this one comes to mind](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=107905&pagenumber=3)) I have noticed you classifying whole groups of people as “evil”. I have to say that this is very troubling to me. I think that if you read my posts in the thread mentioned above, you will see that I am very pro equality. That said, when I read what you are writing, I hear the voice of the oppressor, just using different language and hating different things. Do you really believe that entire classes of people are evil? Not to put two fine a point on it, but that way of thinking leads to first not seeing the people that you hate as human, and from there; atrocities. I submit to you that folks that have different opinions that those that you hold (even if they are wrong) are not evil, and that you are being counter productive to the values that you hold dear by not only alienating them, but also alienating the folks that actually agree with you as well as the folks that are on the fence that you are tipping over in to disagreeing with you because you cast the rest of us in such a bad light. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/45 "2002-04-08T19:04:53Z")
The Carters are exceptions, even though they generally wouldn’t fit my definition of a Christian (one who upholds the Nicene Creed, which is the ancient standard of the Church), I can see them being one of a few exceptions. They are not, however, Southern Baptists any longer. Which, when you live in Texas, is what you mean when you say “Baptist.” ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/46 "2002-04-08T19:07:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Robb \* > **Kirk, who are Christians?** In my opinion, those who accept the tenets of the Nicene Creed. But that’s my opinion. I don’t expect others to abide by it. But I will not refer to those organizations that do not follow the Creed as Christian. \*\* > [@](#): > > When did you become the arbiter of Christianity? \*\* I’m not. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/47 "2002-04-08T19:10:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\* > > No, I’m not (insane). \*\* But in this very same thread you say: \*\* > [@](#): > > Baptists aren’t Christians. \*\* I wonder if Catholics are Christians? How 'bout Mormons? Lutherans? Episcopalians? Since Baptists believe that A) Christ was the only begotten son of God B) That he was both God and Man C) That he died on the Cross and rose again for your sins and D) That if you believe in Him, you’ll be saved then, yeah. They’re Christians pretty much by definition. I’m _Jewish_ and I know that much. Why don’t you? Personally, I’m still betting that the reason is insanity, but I’d be interested in hearing otherwise Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/48 "2002-04-08T19:15:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > **I think that if you read my posts in the thread mentioned above, you will see that I am very pro equality. That said, when I read what you are writing, I hear the voice of the oppressor, just using different language and hating different things.** If its oppression to demand equality, then yes, I’m an oppressor. I seek to oppress those who are wedded to the current system of descrimination by having their views made such that they cannot be expressed in public. I hope and pray for the day where homophobes are just as oppressed as racists. > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that entire classes of people are evil? Certainly. Murderers are a class of people. Rapists are a class of people. Nazis are a class of people. > [@](#): > > Not to put two fine a point on it, but that way of thinking leads to first not seeing the people that you hate as human, and from there; atrocities. Evil is the most human of things. We’re the only creatures truly capable of sustained evil. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/49 "2002-04-08T19:17:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*BTW, they threw a grenade into the Church of the Nativity, burned part of it. \*\* [CBC](http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/08/mideast_monday020408) and [The Globe and Mail](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/RTGAMArticleHTMLTemplate/B/20020408/wisra04086?hub=homeBN&tf=tgam%252Frealtime%252Ffullstory.html&cf=tgam/realtime/config-neutral&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&slug=wisra04086&date=20020408&archive=RTGAM&site=Front&ad_page_name=breakingnews) are reporting that a building near the church burned, not the church itself. Nevertheless, the policeman who was trying to extinguish the fire should not have been shot. ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/50 "2002-04-08T19:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*Everyone who gives money to Baptist “churches” helps fund that “denomination’s” evil, and thus are guilty of its crimes against humanity. If you want to coddle monsters, fine. In the end, they will kill you, or at least condemn you to hell, because that’s how they get their kicks. > > There is no vice in fighting evil with extreme measures. There is no vice in calling evil by the names it deserves. Fundamentalists, baptists, people like TheRyan are evil and descrinimatory. They deserve to be treated as such. \*\* As a member, contributor and an officer of Grace Baptist Church, I am extremely offended by this. Are you calling me evil and discriminatory? Please. You’ve never even met me. Others on this Board who have met me would beg to differ. Those people would include blacks, hispanics, gays, Jews and atheists, among others. I seriously doubt any of them would call me evil and discriminatory. Please think before you post. You’re not really making much sense, especially when you paint with such a broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![Why\_A\_Duck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@Why\_A\_Duck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Why_A_Duck)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/51 "2002-04-08T19:18:57Z")
Hmmm… According to the referenced [Nicene Creed](http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.nicene.txt) and our friend here, to be a Christian you must: “believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” So all you Protestants, Quakers, and Mormons out there, I’ve just got one work for you: Poseurs! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/52 "2002-04-08T19:20:55Z")
**Kirk** , you REALLY need to get a smaller brush and another axe. It isn’t effective, it isn’t going to fly here, and the people you’re fighting against are going to look good by comparison. Not what you want, right? So stop. Take a breather. Fight the good fight, not the one that’ll piss everyone off and accomplish nothing. ---
**Author:** ![ummm.yeahh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ummm.yeahh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ummm.yeahh)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/53 "2002-04-08T19:21:19Z")
Basically what I am saying is this: You by all means have the right to your opinion (as others have the right to take you to task for it). But if you are going to do it, be respectful. It is possible to express your view without demeaning others. I think that’s what people have a problem with, not your religious or political views. The great thing about your opinon is just that: It’s **YOUR** opinon ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/54 "2002-04-08T19:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*I wonder if Catholics are Christians? How 'bout Mormons? Lutherans? Episcopalians? \*\* By my estimation (which is all that we’re discussing, and only applies to my perspective): Absolutely. Dunno. Yes. Definitely. \*\* > [@](#): > > Since Baptists believe that > > A) Christ was the only begotten son of God > B) That he was both God and Man > C) That he died on the Cross and rose again for your sins > and > D) That if you believe in Him, you’ll be saved > > then, yeah. They’re Christians pretty much by definition.\*\* That’s not the definition of a Christian, at least not historically. That’s a couple points of it, but that’s horribly watered down. Historically, the meausure of a Christian was the Nicene Creed. \*We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. \* Baptists and other Fundamentalists sects do not ascribe to this creed. So I do not consider them Christian. More like pseudo-Christian. Since I don’t believe that you have to be Christian to be “sah-ved” this is not me condemning them. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/55 "2002-04-08T19:22:28Z")
Er, a different axe, not another axe. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/56 "2002-04-08T19:25:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DAVEW0071 \* > \*\*As a member, contributor and an officer of Grace Baptist Church, I am extremely offended by this. Are you calling me evil and discriminatory? \*\* Does your church give money to the Southern Baptist Convention? To “focus on family” or any similar hate groups? To “Family Values” groups? If so, then your church supports organizations that seek to descriminate against me and block me and people like me from teaching, marrying, adopting or serving in the armed forces. Therefore if your church does this, and you give them money, then you support this, and are thus descriminatory. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/57 "2002-04-08T19:28:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\* > > [CBC](http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/08/mideast_monday020408) and [The Globe and Mail](http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/RTGAMArticleHTMLTemplate/B/20020408/wisra04086?hub=homeBN&tf=tgam%252Frealtime%252Ffullstory.html&cf=tgam/realtime/config-neutral&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&slug=wisra04086&date=20020408&archive=RTGAM&site=Front&ad_page_name=breakingnews) are reporting that a building near the church burned, not the church itself.\*\* that’s good to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/58 "2002-04-08T19:30:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Why A Duck \* > \*\*Hmmm… According to the referenced [Nicene Creed](http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.nicene.txt) and our friend here, to be a Christian you must: > > “believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”\*\* The “C” in Catholic should not be capitalized. It does not refer to the Catholic Church of Rome, but the catholic Church. This includes anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans, etc and so forth. The one that exempts Baptists and their ilk is the Creed’s affirmation of regenerative baptism. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/59 "2002-04-08T19:30:31Z")
> [@](#): > > If the UN were to push you out of your home, and give your city to someone else, how would you react? And if those people kept annexing more and more of your lands, and pushing you further and further back, what would you do? The Palestinians were already there. The UN had no business pouring all those soon-to-be-Israelis into the region. Again, you have no command of the facts. Jewish resetlement of their ancestral homeland began under the [Ottomans](http://www.cidi.nl/html/info/facts/fhist4.html) in the 16th century. Jewish settlement increased with the advent of Zionism as the new settlers **bought** their land from the Ottomans. In 1917, the British assumed control of Palestine from the defunct Ottomans, and in accordance with the [Balfour Declaration](http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm), which supported establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine without compromising the rights of the people already living there. From thr beginning of Jewish settlement, the Arabs declared unremitting hostility to Jews. From this [site](http://www.mideastweb.org/BriefHistory.htm) > [@](#): > > In the spring of 1920, spring of 1921 and summer of 1929, Arab nationalists instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. The major instigators were Haj Amin El-Husseini, later Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and Arif -El Arif, a prominent Palestinian journalist. The pogroms led to evacuation of the Jewish community of Hebron. About half the 5,000 residents of the Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem were forced to flee as well. The violence led to the formation of the Hagana Jewish self-defence organization. In 1936 an Arab revolt led by the pro-Nazi Haj Amin Al-Husseini broke out. Hundreds of Arabs and Jews were killed. The Husseini family killed both Jews and members of Palestinian Arab families opposed to their hegemony. In response, the British set a limit on Jewish immigration to appease the Arabs. After the end of WWII, the British continued to limit the number of Jews immigrating to Palestine, leading Jewish paramilitary groups to lead a campaign against the British to leave Palestine. At every step, the British allied themselves with the Arabs against the Jews, and at independence in 1948, the British handed over all their weapons and ammuniton to the Arbas in contravention of UN directives. Despite the allout Arab attacks against the Jews in 1948, the Jews still asked Arabs to stay and build a united Israel. The Arabs ran instead. Since then, there have been wars in 1956, 1967, and 1973, each one instigated by Arabs. The Palestinians have been refused shelter by every Arab government, who cynically use the plight of the Palestinians as a propaganda chip against Israel. In short, the Arabs are at fault here, and you’re a liar or a fool. > [@](#): > > Please do not use female terms to refer to me. If you don’t want to be called a screaming little bitch, then cease acting like a screaming little bitch, Miss Thang. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/60 "2002-04-08T19:31:36Z")
Well hell, you’ve convinced me. I’ll tell you what, you make up a list of the groups of people that you find evil, I’ll go get a pick-up truck and we can drag them to death, or perhaps hang them from a fence post. You seem to be being deliberately misunderstanding, so I will try to say it a different way. If you are trying to deny people speech, or if you hate entire classes of people, than you are really no different spiritually than those you condemn. Congrats. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437.md?page=4)