# Kirkland1244, you don't seem to be getting it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437 "2002-04-08T05:16:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/81 "2002-04-08T20:33:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > **Oh, I see. You’re a troll.** No, not really. I agree with every position I’ve taken, only I have taken them, clealry, to illogical extremes. I normally would not do this, and I aplogize to the board, but frankly, it pissed me off to have my name put in the title of a thread… on many boards I’ve been to, they ban people for doing that. To sum up my actual positions, so there’s no confusion: 1. I dislike TheRyan, and consider him an anti-gay, anti-Christian bigot. 2. I do not consider fundamentalists Christian. 3. I believe that anyone who does not support equal rights for gays is a bigot. The rest was mostly hyperbole. Frankly, I didn’t intend to continue this long with it… but there was no real way to stop once it started. I kept hoping people would just stop responding. I should have taken that initiative myself. I promise that I won’t play the hyperbole game again. \*\* > [@](#): > > A thousand apologies for having taken up Board space in attempting to deal with this girl seriously and respectfully. \*\* You have not posted before in this thread. And you canot call yourself respectful when you are spitting on me by using a female pronoun. I am in no way female. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/82 "2002-04-08T20:34:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* > > Oh, I see. You’re a troll. To the TM: A thousand apologies for having taken up Board space in attempting to deal with this girl seriously and respectfully. \*\* Actually I learned something, so no need to apologize. And while the troll is now irrelevant, can you or some other worthy tell me if I’m correct if the troll was trying to say that Baptists aren’t Christian because performing the act of Baptism is unnecessesary? That’s not a standard belief, is it: that you’re not Christian if you do something extra? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/83 "2002-04-08T20:38:41Z")
No, what I was saying is that the Baptist understanding of baptism does not match historical Christian belief. They do baptize. They just don’t consider baptism a sacrament of grace, as Catholics do. Nor do they believe it regenerates, which almost all Christians do, outside of some fundamentalist sects. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/84 "2002-04-08T20:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DAVEW0071 \* > **IANATheologian, but from what I understand, one baptism for the remission of sins does not refer to the rite of baptism in any church. It refers to the baptism of the Spirit, the physical symbol of which is a baptism in water.** In Catholic theology, and AFAIK most normal Protestant bodies, the water is the conveyor of the Spirit. IE, while baptism isn’t strictly required for salvation (even in Catholicism), it is the act of baptism (which is an act of the Holy Spirit) which regenerates. You cannot separate the water and the Spirit. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/85 "2002-04-08T20:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\* > > Actually I learned something, so no need to apologize. > > And while the troll is now irrelevant, can you or some other worthy tell me if I’m correct if the troll was trying to say that Baptists aren’t Christian because performing the act of Baptism is unnecessesary? That’s not a standard belief, is it: that you’re not Christian if you do something extra? > > Fenris \*\* I’ll try to clarify, **Fenris** , although I’m not sure if I can. Please bear with me as I attempt. First, as I mentioned, I am a Baptist. Or, to put it more accurately, I am a Christian who worships in a Baptist church. Being Baptists, we, well, baptize people. But while doing so, we stress that it is the outward display of an inward decision. Making the decision to go ahead and submit to a public baptism is not something to be entered into lightly, as it is a public affirmation of one’s faith, and as such, carries with it some responsibilities. Ya gotta walk the walk, in other words, or you make a mockery of it. Not a good thing. I recall it was you yourself who outlined earlier in this thread the “requirements” of being a Christian. Frankly, I had no arguments with them. Taking that list, you can see that it is not what someone **does** , but rather what someone **believes** that makes that person a Christian. By logical extension, “Christian behavior” would follow a sincere decision, not the other way around. Doing “something extra” (which I take to mean an outward show) is the mere window dressings of faith. A person can be a Christian and still drink alcohol, or smoke, or use profanity. These things may not be very good examples of “Christian behavior”, but they don’t determine the status of one’s salvation. As I understand it, nothing that a person can do, or can avoid doing, is going to affect that. It is a matter of faith, and is left to the judgment of God. Not a very complete or cogent explanation, but I did my best. Hope it made sense. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/86 "2002-04-08T20:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > You have not posted before in this thread. And you canot call yourself respectful when you are spitting on me by using a female pronoun. I am in no way female Spitting on you by using a female pronoun? Who is a bigot again? Your definiton of “Christian” is just plain bizarre. A Christian believes that Jesus atoned for the sins of humanity and offers new life through His death and resurrection. The rest is just quibbling. (sprays Troll-B-Gon, new lemon-scented!) ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/87 "2002-04-08T20:53:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\* > > In Catholic theology, and AFAIK most normal Protestant bodies, the water is the conveyor of the Spirit. IE, while baptism isn’t strictly required for salvation (even in Catholicism), it is the act of baptism (which is an act of the Holy Spirit) which regenerates. You cannot separate the water and the Spirit. > > Kirk \*\* So someone who makes a sincere commitment to believing that Jesus died for his salvation, yet passes away without being baptized is damned? I’m uncomfortable with that for two reasons: 1. it doesn’t make logical sense to me 2. it places limits on God’s (and by extension, the Holy Spirit’s) powers and abilities. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/88 "2002-04-08T20:54:07Z")
I find it interesting that our friend here asserts the ability to define for others (“no, they’re not Christian, yes, those people there are”), yet gets the proverbial panties in a twist should anyone have the audacity to refer to him in anything but the most masculine of adjectives and nouns. Perhaps I should have said “shorts in a twist” ? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![cercaria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/87869e/32.png) [@cercaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cercaria)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/89 "2002-04-08T20:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\* > Please do not use female terms to refer to me. > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\* > You have not posted before in this thread. And you canot call yourself respectful when you are spitting on me by using a female pronoun. I am in no way female. > \*\* Stop me if I’m missing something. Since when is assuming the wrong gender for a poster an insult? Or did you have a “I’m a man, I’m a MAN!” thread that I didn’t get to read? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/90 "2002-04-08T21:02:27Z")
**december** : > [@](#): > > Today, there are quite a number of Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors as well as Tricyclic Antidepressants available. **Ka** > [@](#): > > Kirk, have you escaped from an institution recently? Hey! As an active member of the [psychiatric inmates’ liberation movement](http://members.aol.com/ahunter3) , an opponent of forced treatment and informed consent about dangerous and destructive pharmaceuticals, and as a genuine escapee from psychiatric institutional incarceration myself, I must say – **I really resent the comparison here**. Anyone else comparing Kirkland to insane people will be targeted by a new pit thread for insulting schizophrenics and other self-respective lunatics. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/91 "2002-04-08T21:03:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*Anyone who doesn’t see the parallells between the actions of the Israelis and the Nazis isn’t looking hard enough. Sharon would have made an excellent SS officer. I’m sick of the US and its media coddling the Israelis, who have systematically broken every provision of their 1947 agreement with the UN. > > \*\* Wow can you smell the hate from here or what. Your a sad, sad little man. Pathetic. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/92 "2002-04-08T21:15:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Monty_ > > > > I didn’t realize that God (the deity, not the poster) was a posting member of this board. > > Learn to read. I said **I** don’t consider them Christian. Not that God doesn’t. Or that you shouldn’t. They don’t fit my personal standard, so I do not refer to them as such. If you want to, I don’t care. If they fit your personal standard of what constitutes a Christian, then bully for you. Your personal standard?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Learn to read?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Okay, I can breathe again. May I suggest that YOU read something? Read (and, pray, understand) Matthew 7:1. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/93 "2002-04-08T21:25:22Z")
Anyone else notice **Kirkland** completely glossed over **Gaudere** ’s official warning? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/94 "2002-04-08T21:30:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Kirk, have you escaped from an institution recently? > > No… but I did skip statistics class on thursday. You’re slipping, boy – in your shoes I’d have come up with a **much** witter, and more apropos, response! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/95 "2002-04-08T21:44:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > > You’re slipping, boy – in your shoes I’d have come up with a **much** witter, and more apropos, response! 😉 \*\* Seeing as I’m the guy who asked Kirk that - What would your comeback have been? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/96 "2002-04-08T21:46:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DAVEW0071 \* > \*\*Not a very complete or cogent explanation, but I did my best. Hope it made sense. \*\* Your explaination was very clear and cogent (and matched much of what I’d understood, which was nice! 😉 ). Now I’m just confused as to what Kirk’s problem with Baptists is. He says > [@](#): > > In Catholic theology, and AFAIK most normal Protestant bodies, the water is the conveyor of the Spirit. IE, while baptism isn’t strictly required for salvation (even in Catholicism), it is the act of baptism (which is an act of the Holy Spirit) which regenerates. You cannot separate the water and the Spirit. So…he’s saying that you _HAVE_ to have a physical baptism with water and he’s mad because baptists have physical baptisms? Is he saying that baptism isn’t required for salvation and he’s mad because Baptists agree? I’ve read all of Martin Gardner’s and Michael Shermer’s books on weird beliefs and I’ll confess: I’m stumped as to what the heck is the burr in his britches. Is it that you guys _do_ baptize? That you _don’t_ baptise the right way (and if that’s the problem, what’s wrong with the way you do it?). Is he saying you need a special kind of water (God-infused)? Or what? Seriously: it’s frustrating 'cause he sounds like he’s on the verge of being coherent but I’m just not getting it, apparently. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/97 "2002-04-08T22:53:37Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > Spitting on you by using a female pronoun? Who is a bigot again?_\* I am not a female. I like females. But I am not one of them. And I do not like being referred to by feminine pronouns. I consider it gay-bashing. \*\* > [@](#): > > Your definiton of “Christian” is just plain bizarre. A Christian believes that Jesus atoned for the sins of humanity and offers new life through His death and resurrection. The rest is just quibbling. \*\* In your opinion that’s what it means to be a Christian. Not in the opinion of the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, or most Protestant bodies, who would have a far broader definition of what you must believe in order to be a Christian. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/98 "2002-04-08T23:04:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **Now I’m just confused as to what Kirk’s problem with Baptists is.** I have a problem with Baptists because the Southern Baptist Convention is a bigotted hate cult that is organized to oppose equal rights for gays. Their screwed up, pseudo-Christian theology (when compared to the real historic Churches), has nothing to do with my opinion of them as a people. \*\* > [@](#): > > So…he’s saying that you _HAVE_ to have a physical baptism with water and he’s mad because baptists have physical baptisms?\*\* No, and no. \*\* > [@](#): > > Is he saying that baptism isn’t required for salvation and he’s mad because Baptists agree?\*\* Not quite. And no. Baptist baptism is not the same as Christian (Catholic, Anglican, Orthodox… etc) baptism, because it is not considered regenerative… In a Baptist baptism all that happens is that you get wet. Historical Christians believe that the act of Baptism washes away all sins the person being baptized has committed in their lifetime. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/99 "2002-04-08T23:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\*Anyone else notice **Kirkland** completely glossed over **Gaudere** ’s official warning? \*\* How so? I am no longer engaging in hyperbole simply for the sake of provoking a response. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/100 "2002-04-08T23:15:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > > I have a problem with Baptists because the Southern Baptist Convention is a bigotted hate cult that is organized to oppose equal rights for gays. Their screwed up, pseudo-Christian theology (when compared to the real historic Churches), has nothing to do with my opinion of them as a people. So, love the sinner, hate the sin, right? :rolleyes: My God, you’re a complete loon. Get over yourself _and_ your misplaced righteous indignation, girlfriend - we have. Let me guess - HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, either, right? Esprix [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437.md?page=6)