# Kirkland1244, you don't seem to be getting it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437 "2002-04-08T05:16:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/121 "2002-04-09T01:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **You’re so dense, your head has an event horizon.** 😃 “Is your head up your ass for the warmth?” ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/122 "2002-04-09T01:43:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > **BZZZT. Sola fide is a tenet of Protestantism, not Christianity. The vast majority of the world’s Christians do not believe in Sola fide (faith alone).** What? Works based salvation? I (honestly) thought that went out with the 15th century. I’m not nearly as up on my New Testament as I once was, but isn’t there a pretty famous line about “Through grace alone are you saved…” and another about “How no-one comes to the Father but through me”? (Not “through me and a certain quota of good deeds”?) **Dave** : Thanks for the answers. I think I understand your POV more clearly now, though I still have no idea what Kirk’s objections mean (“regenerative”?), but since you don’t seem to either, I don’t think I’ll worry about it. 🙂 Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/123 "2002-04-09T01:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*Oh _nooooo_, you don’t care. Ha! It’s all a lark! \*\* There are (maybe) four or five people on this board whose opinion of me I care about. gobear is not one of them. \*\* > [@](#): > > That’s why you almost spontaniously combust when anyone refers to you as a female! But - oh yeah! - you _really_ don’t care!\*\* I fully admit that I lose it over the female thing. I used to flip out over nicknames of any sort. But that was a long time ago. \*\* > [@](#): > > And don’t think for a minute that we are buying that you don’t care - you didn’t bother to give us your story about depression and woe until now, and there’s a _reason_ for that.\*\* Sure there is. But its not to try to win sympathy, as you seem to think. \*\* > [@](#): > > You are fooling no one.\*\* What motivation would I have to decieve you? \*\* > [@](#): > > I think you are getting a huge charge out of this.\*\* Not at the start. Then it did get kinda fun. Now not so much. \*\* > [@](#): > > I think it’s sad, that you are making yourself such an easy target deliberately. I think the best thing we all could do is to let this thread die. You’re obviously feeding off all the negative attention. Are you really proud of that fact?\*\* I’m not feeding off of anything. At this point, I’m feel bad about it. \*\* > [@](#): > > And yeah, the meltdown clock continues to tick. \*\* What’s the timer at? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/124 "2002-04-09T01:47:44Z")
Well, P.T. Smegma, despite your counsel against tilting at windmills, I just can’t help myself. When did I ever say that homosexuality=pedophilia? ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/125 "2002-04-09T01:47:53Z")
I myself belong don’t belong to an organized religion, but I see **equal amounts of hate** coming from **both** camps. Instead of stretching (way past the point of _breaking_) the self-defense measures being carried out by the _IDF_ with the _Nazi’s_, perhaps you should think twice. I cringe at the following thoughts. I hope you don’t agree with any of these maniacal rantings: [ul][li]\* "The best thing is to let Southern Baptism die a natural death… When understanding of the universe has become widespread… [/li][li]“Southern Baptism has reached the peak of absurdity… And that’s why someday its structure will collapse… [/li][li]”…the only way to get rid of Southern Baptists (are) to allow (them) to die little by little… [/li][li]"Southern Baptism \ the liar… [/li][li]“Southern Baptism is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.” [/li][li]“Southern Baptism is an invention of sick brains”[/li][li]“There is something very unhealthy about Southern Baptists.”[/li][li]“I shall never come personally to terms with the Baptist lie.”[/li][li]"The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Southern Baptists… [/li][li]“Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Southern Baptists… My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold \.”\*[/ul][/li] No, not Karl Marx, Adolph Hitler. I know your beef is with the heirarchy in the Baptists, so I took the liberty of replacing the word(s) **“christian(ity)”** with **"Southern Baptism(/ists)"** Some people have faith, others don’t. Some individuals (whether they be members of an organized religion/sect, or not) hate others that are different from them. Like so many posters have pointed out, it’s your “angry young man”, “broad-brush”, “group-think” opinions and approach that turns so many people off. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/126 "2002-04-09T01:48:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > **What? Works based salvation?** No, the Catholic Church does not teach “works based” salvation. But not sola-fide salavation, either. That’s a Protestant invention. \*\* > [@](#): > > I’m not nearly as up on my New Testament as I once was, but isn’t there a pretty famous line about “Through grace alone are you saved…” and another about “How no-one comes to the Father but through me”? (Not “through me and a certain quota of good deeds”?)\*\* Yes. Through grace. How that grace is maintained is where Catholicism and Protestantism differ. Catholics believe you have to not only believe, but act upon belief through the sacraments to maintain grace, while Protestans believe that just believing is enough (to highly, highly simplify matters). \*\* > [@](#): > > I think I understand your POV more clearly now, though I still have no idea what Kirk’s objections mean (“regenerative”?),\*\* Regenerative. That which regenerates. Baptism that regenerates. IE, Baptism that washes away sins. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/127 "2002-04-09T01:59:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, P.T. Smegma, despite your counsel against tilting at windmills, I just can’t help myself. When did I ever say that homosexuality=pedophilia? FUCK! Where’s a _STUN grenade_ when you really need one?:wally ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/128 "2002-04-09T02:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\* > > FUCK! Where’s a _STUN grenade_ when you really need one?:wally \*\* Israel. ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/129 "2002-04-09T02:21:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes. Through grace. How that grace is maintained is where Catholicism and Protestantism differ. Catholics believe you have to not only believe, but act upon belief through the sacraments to maintain grace, while Protestans believe that just believing is enough (to highly, highly simplify matters). Yes, you’ve highly, highly simplified it, all right. Both Paul and James stress that, while faith in Christ is the **only** route to salvation, works matter also, as **testaments** of that faith. James says: > [@](#): > > faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead…Show me our faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. In other words, the good deeds that a Christian is motivated to do, in the name of Jesus, are putting his money where his mouth is. Talk is cheap. Paul says, in Romans 6:15a - 18: > [@](#): > > What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were intrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. It’s a little hard to follow, but essentially what Paul is saying is that, because of God’s grace, and the saving power of faith, Christians have a stronger imperative to obey God’s law. The motivating factor is not gaining or maintaining something by obedience, but rather, obedience is the natural response in light of what God has done in a person’s life. Grace is freely given, not something to be “maintained.” The most compelling argument I can think of (and I can’t find the exact portion of Scripture) is the notion that “working” to gain a reward makes God beholden to us. God owes us nothing. It is we who owe God. Thus, as far as 2000 years of Christian thought on “works” such as baptism goes, I think **Kirk** is fairly well off the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/130 "2002-04-09T02:47:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DAVEW0071 \* > \*\* > > Yes, you’ve highly, highly simplified it, all right. Both Paul and James stress that, while faith in Christ is the **only** route to salvation, works matter also, as **testaments** of that faith.\*\* In your opinion. The historical Christian Churches would interpret those passages differently, particularly the passage in james which says that all the faith in the world is worthless without works. We are not justified by faith. Nor works. But only by grace. Here’s an article from the historical Christian/Catholic point of view: \*\* [/QUOTE] [Faith & Works](http://www.catholicoutlook.com/objfaith4.html) The Orthodox perspective is much the same… only more mystical and stuff, as Orthodoxy is wont to be. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/131 "2002-04-09T02:51:28Z")
\*\*_Originally posted by Kirkland1244_ > [@](#): > > it pissed me off to have my name put in the title of a thread… on many boards I’ve been to, they ban people for doing that.\*\* Not this one, baby. You were behaving inappropriately in another thread, and rather than continuing to hijack that one to discuss your actions, mods and admins request that we start a Pit thread to discuss what other posters do in situations like this. \*\*_Originally posted by Kirkland1244_ > [@](#): > > Gee, people posting in a thread that’s designed to attack me don’t like me. What a shock. \*\* This thread was not designed to attack you. Attacking you was not my intent by starting this thread; my intent was to continue the discussion of why your behaviour in **The Ryan’s** thread was inappropriate for these boards, because based on your responses in that thread, you seemed to think your beliefs justified your actions. By the way, rampant, flagrant, so-far-off-in- left-field-that-you-can’t-even-see-the-OP-from-there hijacks of threads are frowned on here, too (and I’m not just talking to Kirkland here {frowns sternly around the room}). ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/132 "2002-04-09T03:05:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by featherlou \* > \*\*\*\*_Originally posted by Kirkland1244_ > Not this one, baby. You were behaving inappropriately in another thread, and rather than continuing to hijack that one to discuss your actions, mods and admins request that we start a Pit thread to discuss what other posters do in situations like this. \*\* Ah. Okay. > [@](#): > > _ **Originally posted by Kirkland1244** _ > This thread was not designed to attack you. Attacking you was not my intent by starting this thread; my intent was to continue the discussion of why your behaviour in **The Ryan’s** thread was inappropriate for these boards, because based on your responses in that thread, you seemed to think your beliefs justified your actions. Okay. Sorry. > [@](#): > > By the way, rampant, flagrant, so-far-off-in- left-field-that-you-can’t-even-see-the-OP-from-there hijacks of threads are frowned on here, too (and I’m not just talking to Kirkland here {frowns sternly around the room}). This comment is off-topic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/133 "2002-04-09T03:07:24Z")
The earnest suggestion at this point is that you might want to turn off the computer and call it a day. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/134 "2002-04-09T03:14:05Z")
Not until I finish this paper on issues between the Russian Federation and the European Union… ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/135 "2002-04-09T03:18:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*Not until I finish this paper on issues between the Russian Federation and the European Union… \*\* Just call them all Nazis and then sign your name at the bottom. Or maybe Evil. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/136 "2002-04-09T03:26:09Z")
That would hardly be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![LCP2972](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@LCP2972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LCP2972)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/137 "2002-04-09T03:45:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*Baptists aren’t Christians. > > But you’re right. I apologize for including them on the list. \*\* We’re **NOT**? Who the fuck gave you the right to determine whether my family and I are christians? On what bullshit stand do you make this claim, you ignorant narrow minded bigot? I can almost see your point on 47 accord, but dont you remember **why** the Isrealis took over Jeruselum and the west bank in the first place? They were being attacked from there by people who wanted to “Drive them into the sea…” The Palestinians were given the choice the Isrealis **invited** them to stay and help build a nation, they declined , and have been whining ever since. I’m going to give you a chance to explain why us baptists are such “vermin”, but you really should watch the bigot talk, coming from you, it’s downright laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/138 "2002-04-09T04:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Do you really believe that entire classes of people are evil? > > \*\*Certainly. Murderers are a class of people. Rapists are a class of people. Nazis are a class of people. \*\* I’m kinda surprised nobody has picked up on this yet (Though I honestly wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s been gone over before), but I don’t think this is entirely accurate. While the acts might be evil, it doesn’t necessarily mean the people that commit them are evil. Consider the guy whos daughter is brutally raped, finds the guy who did it soon afterward, and kills him. That’s murder. Was it a bad thing to do? Most likely. Is he evil for doing it? I don’t think so. He deserves punishment for killing the person, of course, but evil is stretching it. Or consider the Nazis that were completely against many of the things the Nazi party did, but served out of either duty or fear. Some Nazis conspired to kill Hitler and end the war. Others undermined the German war effort. Others were considered so honerable that they were and still are held in high regard by their enemies (Rommel, for example). Saying that MANY murderers are evil may be accurate. But labeling an entire class in some way is still a blind stereotype. There are almost always exceptions, and it seems rather ignorant to condemn someone simply by their class. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/139 "2002-04-09T05:04:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*Well, P.T. Smegma, despite your counsel against tilting at windmills, I just can’t help myself. When did I ever say that homosexuality=pedophilia? \*\* > [@](#): > > _originally posted by moi_ > > I also took part in that thread where **TheRyan made inflammatory statements along the lines of > “homosexuality=pedophilia,” and then, when presented with overwhelming evidence to the contrary, refused to acknowledge the evidence as valid.** So he impressed me as being incredibly dense. So what? (Sorry, didn’t link to the thread…and it’s a long read.) > > The best or worst I can do is notice him, though I’m not above a flame in context or a smartass remark. 😃_emphasis mine_ **Ryan** , here we are, having a nice, somewhat vitriolic Pit thread…and then you add your incomprehension to it. It’s like having a turd drop into a lovely Ming vase. The above quotes, the first one being your uncomprehending bleating, the second being what I posted, illustrate that you have the reading comprehension skills of a retarded clam. Dig it: I said that you **implied** that homosexuality=pedophilia in the thread I’m talking about. More to the point, you defended the idea that male adult/male child molestation was **homosexual conduct** , in spite of many (very good) cites of experts in the field of human sexuality stating that **adult sexuality has nothing to do with a child molester’s targets**. Sorry, no link to the thread, I can’t find it. Also, my saying “made inflammatory statements along the lines of,” means you **implied** that, in case you were about to quibble (as you are wont to do). OK, buttnugget? Got it? Or did that get lost in the festering abyss of your “understanding” of things? Now, go play in traffic. I _ **FART** _ in your general direction! ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437/140 "2002-04-09T06:06:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kirkland1244 \* > \*\*That would hardly be accurate. \*\* Which, if you didn’t pick up on it, was exactly my point, honey. Sam [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirkland1244-you-dont-seem-to-be-getting-it/102437.md?page=8)