# Kirsten Gillibrand doesn't regret forcing Al Franken to resign **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 22, 2019, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038 "2019-08-22T03:39:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/21 "2019-08-22T15:35:00Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …this is simply your spin. A narrative. From what I could see she called on him to resign precisely because resigning was, in her opinion, the right thing to do. But surely, being that neither you (nor I for that matter) are mind-readers, will acknowledge that the possibility exists that she in fact called on him to resign because of the political climate, right? She’s a politician. This is what politicians do. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/22 "2019-08-22T15:53:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :smack: > Its politically costly to her…_now_. It was very advantageous to her then. > Politician makes a political decision. It doesn’t go as hoped. Nothing big, move on. I disagree. Franken was a popular Democrat. It hurt Gillibrand’s party to lose him. She knew that in 2017. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/23 "2019-08-22T16:22:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I disagree. Franken was a popular Democrat. It hurt Gillibrand’s party to lose him. She knew that in 2017. Reasonable minds can differ. I love Franken and wish he was in the 2020 race. But I hold no ill will to Senator Gillibrand. I see her point of view, even if I don’t 100% share it. One thing I’ve learned from the Trump years, I can be more tolerant of “normal” ranges of political views, and reserve my outrage for Trump-level misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/24 "2019-08-22T16:43:15Z")
I also love Franken and wish he was running for President. He’s intelligent, talented, and charismatic. He’d be a good candidate in general and I think he’d be particularly strong against Trump; he’s somebody who’d irritate Trump and make him screw up. But sexual harassment is wrong and the accusations against Franken are credible. So do we stand by our principles or do we go down the “it’s only wrong when the other side does it” route? I personally would rather have a party that believes principles are something more than just tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/25 "2019-08-22T17:02:17Z")
Or do we ignore this particular medias attempt to gin up a conflict involving a Presidential hopeful? ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/26 "2019-08-22T17:44:06Z")
I’m sure she probably does regret it now, but saying otherwise would look like you were unsupportive of the women and would be political suicide. She’s made her own bed and now she has to lie in it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/27 "2019-08-22T17:52:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But sexual harassment is wrong and the accusations against Franken are credible. So do we stand by our principles or **do we go down the “it’s only wrong when the other side does it”** route? I personally would rather have a party that believes principles are something more than just tactics. Certainly we don’t (my bold) do that. But there are other principles involved. Maybe those are the ones that should be stood by. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/28 "2019-08-22T18:24:52Z")
If [this](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken) hasn’t yet been cited, it should be. (New Yorker) ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/29 "2019-08-22T18:29:30Z")
I wish he had been more respectful of women’s bodies and boundaries. And if that were the case, I think I might have been a supporter if he were running for president now. But I don’t have any problem with the people who asked him to resign. Especially given his statements at the time, which were not full denials, and the photographic evidence. I remember hearing at the time from friends who are Democrats that it was foolish to expect him to resign, because Dems would lose a powerful senator. But I don’t think it is really that hard to find people who don’t have a long history of groping or kissing women against their will, and let them have a chance to lead. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/30 "2019-08-22T20:27:30Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > But surely, being that neither you (nor I for that matter) are mind-readers, will acknowledge that the possibility exists that she in fact called on him to resign because of the political climate, right? …what part of “from what I could see” did you fail to understand? > [@](#): > > She’s a politician. This is what politicians do. And politicians often do the principled thing. That’s what they do. I see no reason why we should assume she did this “just because of the political climate” which was all I was pointing out. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/31 "2019-08-22T20:30:51Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > If [this](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/29/the-case-of-al-franken) hasn’t yet been cited, it should be. (New Yorker) …in case [this](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/al-franken-jane-mayer-new-yorker_n_5d37739fe4b0419fd33475a2?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJi_3UoD-aBoK0hhLW2F73Q75Rvq6BmGDXpGX8YwnQPvmynDILHIF40_eiTjBk8Ib4EuigyGQ8WlboWIbqJT85myajPZ_mVXHwicD8YWK5FFMD4D2376ZulT3oBUPF_7z0K8tHSdzkdGJ8dx0I2XFFSjYBwT5iXmkVE5Se00KcF8)hasn’t already been cited yet, it should be. (Huff Post) ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/32 "2019-08-23T00:10:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …what part of “from what I could see” did you fail to understand? > > And politicians often do the principled thing. That’s what they do. I see no reason why we should assume she did this “just because of the political climate” which was all I was pointing out. You characterized what **DragonAsh** said as “simply spin”, or a “narrative”. He gave his opinion about what he thinks was going through KG’s mind, as did you. Are you just spinning? I don’t think so. I’m simply asking, why is what you say thoughtful and reasoned, but what DA said is not? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/33 "2019-08-23T00:25:35Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > You characterized what **Dragon Ash** said as “simply spin”, or a “narrative”. …it is spin. It was a narrative. > [@](#): > > He gave his opinion about what he thinks was going through KG’s mind, as did you. “She called on him to resign precisely because of the political climate at the time made it beneficial to do so” is not an expression of an “opinion”. It was an expression of fact. > [@](#): > > Are you just spinning? I don’t think so. I’m simply asking, why is what you say thoughtful and reasoned, but what DA said is not? Because it is entirely reasonable to just accept someone at their word. There is no reason to believe that Gillibrand would have behaved differently in a different political climate, in fact she is on record (stated by the OP) as saying that she remains “steadfastly unapologetic about calling for Al Franken to resign from the US Senate.” What is the belief that “she called on him to resign precisely because of the political climate at the time made it beneficial to do so” based on? What material benefit did she get, and how does that compare to the harassment and the smear campaigns and the hate that has been directed her way since she made that decision? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/34 "2019-08-23T00:38:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Because it is entirely reasonable to just accept someone at their word. I find it incredibly naive of you to just accept KG at her word. You seriously won’t even consider the possibilities DragonAsh has brought up? You know, give him the benefit of the doubt instead of making those accustations. And just because you don’t agree with someone, doesn’t mean they are spinning. In any case, DA can defend himself… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/35 "2019-08-23T00:42:26Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Certainly we don’t (my bold) do that. But there are other principles involved. Maybe those are the ones that should be stood by. What principles are you suggesting? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/36 "2019-08-23T00:45:19Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I find it incredibly naive of you to just accept KG at her word. …why? I’m taking you at your word. I take everyone here in this thread at their word. What reason would I have to not take her at her word? Her statement is consistent with her position on sexual harassment that she has shown throughout her career. Her statement is entirely consistent with the position she holds now. Why should I not believe her? > [@](#): > > You seriously won’t even consider the possibilities DragonAsh has brought up? I would seriously consider the possibilities if DragonAsh were to present some evidence to back those possibilities up. > [@](#): > > And just because you don’t agree with someone, doesn’t mean they are spinning. In any case, DA can defend himself… DA presented an opinion without evidence as fact. That’s spin. Not a mere difference in opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2019, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/37 "2019-08-23T01:36:44Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The real story is that the New York Times is being pushed into the right wing conspiracysphere. They’re clearly trying to engineer news, as we’ve already seen with its headline mishap and now this. They’re supplicating for millennial “bro” subscribers and capitulating to the pressure that Trump and the right wing is putting them under. The _Times_ might be slowly fading into irrelevance in the mediasphere, but they aren’t looking for millennial bros to save them. The _Times_ has never appealed to young readers, and knows damn well it never will. The paper has been an acquired taste since at least the 1930s and it understands that people “grow into it.” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/38 "2019-08-24T03:26:22Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > But I don’t have any problem with the people who asked him to resign. Especially given his statements at the time, which were not full denials This is one aspect I have issue with. If he had issued ‘strong full denials’, does anyone really think reaction from KG or other senators would have been ‘see, he’s denying it, we really should let the ethics committee do its thing’? Because I don’t think that’s what would have happened. I think his denials would have been viewed as just another sexual molester denying everything and calling the accusers liars etc. That’s what most people assumed with Kavanaugh, right? And the travesty there was that the ‘due process’ appeared to be a rushed, half-baked partisan hack job designed to avoid getting to the truth at all costs. Numerous senators now say they let themselves be persuaded by the climate at the time, and wish they had pushed for due process. Franken has noted that his response was measured in part by feeling that any sort of strong denial would be construed as blaming/accusing the accusers. KG sidesteps all responsibility by saying that calling on him to resign without the ethics committee investigation, and then him resigning was ‘his decision’, then at the same time claiming that he could have ‘sued the accusers of fraud’ etc, because there’s no way she’s arguing in good faith that she would have backed his decision to not resign and fight the accusations. From the New Yorker article: > [@](#): > > A remarkable number of Franken’s Senate colleagues have regrets about their own roles in his fall. Seven current and former U.S. senators who demanded Franken’s resignation in 2017 told me that they’d been wrong to do so. Such admissions are unusual in an institution whose members rarely concede mistakes. Patrick Leahy, the veteran Democrat from Vermont, said that his decision to seek Franken’s resignation without first getting all the facts was “one of the biggest mistakes I’ve made” in forty-five years in the Senate. Heidi Heitkamp, the former senator from North Dakota, told me, “If there’s one decision I’ve made that I would take back, it’s the decision to call for his resignation. It was made in the heat of the moment, without concern for exactly what this was.” Tammy Duckworth, the junior Democratic senator from Illinois, told me that the Senate Ethics Committee “should have been allowed to move forward.” She said it was important to acknowledge the trauma that Franken’s accusers had gone through, but added, “We needed more facts. That due process didn’t happen is not good for our democracy.” Angus King, the Independent senator from Maine, said that he’d “regretted it ever since” he joined the call for Franken’s resignation. “There’s no excuse for sexual assault,” he said. “But Al deserved more of a process. I don’t denigrate the allegations, but this was the political equivalent of capital punishment.” Senator Jeff Merkley, of Oregon, told me, “This was a rush to judgment that didn’t allow any of us to fully explore what this was about. I took the judgment of my peers rather than independently examining the circumstances. In my heart, I’ve not felt right about it.” Bill Nelson, the former Florida senator, said, “I realized almost right away I’d made a mistake. I felt terrible. I should have stood up for due process to render what it’s supposed to—the truth.” Tom Udall, the senior Democratic senator from New Mexico, said, “I made a mistake. I started having second thoughts shortly after he stepped down. He had the right to be heard by an independent investigative body. I’ve heard from people around my state, and around the country, saying that they think he got railroaded. It doesn’t seem fair. I’m a lawyer. I really believe in due process.” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/39 "2019-08-24T03:45:03Z")
Remind me again, when has Kirsten Gillibrand called on Biden or Klobuchar to pull out of the race due to the numerous accusations from women against them? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038/40 "2019-08-24T05:50:58Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Remind me again, when has Kirsten Gillibrand called on Biden or Klobuchar to pull out of the race due to the numerous accusations from women against them? …remind me again when Franken was running for the Democratic nomination and Kirsten Gillibrand called on him to pull out of the race? > [@](#): > > This is one aspect I have issue with. I strongly suspect there are more than one aspect you would have issue with. > [@](#): > > If he had issued ‘strong full denials’, does anyone really think reaction from KG or other senators would have been ‘see, he’s denying it, we really should let the ethics committee do its thing’? This particular objection isn’t really about Gillibrand though. She is entitled to ask Franken to resign. And if she had chosen, in the face of denials, to continue to ask him to resign, then how does that change anything? > [@](#): > > Because I don’t think that’s what would have happened. I think his denials would have been viewed as just another sexual molester denying everything and calling the accusers liars etc. That’s what most people assumed with Kavanaugh, right? And the travesty there was that the ‘due process’ appeared to be a rushed, half-baked partisan hack job designed to avoid getting to the truth at all costs. We all have the ability to listen to the stories of the accusers, listen to the story told by Franken, and to formulate an opinion on who is more credible. That’s just how the world works. And if Franken did deny the allegations and if he did threaten to sue his accusers then I am allowed to judge him on that. What is it exactly are you wanting to happen? > [@](#): > > Numerous senators now say they let themselves be persuaded by the climate at the time, and wish they had pushed for due process. Franken has noted that his response was measured in part by feeling that any sort of strong denial would be construed as blaming/accusing the accusers. So numerous senators, unlike Gillibrand, don’t have the courage of their convictions, and will “flip” when the political climate changes. That is unsurprising, but it paints Gillibrand in a good light, not a bad one, IMHO. > [@](#): > > KG sidesteps all responsibility by saying that calling on him to resign without the ethics committee investigation, and then him resigning was ‘his decision’, then at the same time claiming that he could have ‘sued the accusers of fraud’ etc, because there’s no way she’s arguing in good faith that she would have backed his decision to not resign and fight the accusations. There are no contradictions here. Gillibrand’s position is a simple one: Franken had agency. He chose to resign. He could have stayed and fought. He could have sued his accusers. What he wasn’t entitled to though was Gillibrand’s silence. You seem to fundamentally not understand what it is that Gillibrand was saying. > [@](#): > > From the New Yorker article: The New Yorker article was a great big steaming pile of shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kirsten-gillibrand-doesnt-regret-forcing-al-franken-to-resign/839038.md?page=3)