# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/181 "2014-09-15T14:05:30Z")
I have no trouble believing the police exceeded their authority based on the description of the crime and the ruling that unobserved misdemeanors do not justify a Terry Stop. I do think this had zero to do with race. At least on the part of the police officers. Whether it had anything to do with race is up in the air with respect to the complaintant, and undeniable with respect to Watts. After listening to the audio, I have to identify my two favorite bits. First is Watts being on the phone with her father, choosing to go to him for advice. A person who, by her own description, has had “countless” bad experiences with the police. Yes, that would be MY go to person for advice. Second, the very end of the audio, where the cop is apparently talking to her boyfriend and saying “I’d have been gone already” and the BF is “Ohhh, God” as it cuts off. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/182 "2014-09-15T14:10:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > HOWEVER, they had every reason to suspect this was an act possibly involving prostitution, did they not? Did they observe money being passed in exchange for sex? > [@](#): > > Sec. 43.02. PROSTITUTION. (a) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly: > > (1) offers to engage, agrees to engage, or engages in sexual conduct for a fee; or > > (2) solicits another in a public place to engage with the person in sexual conduct for hire. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/183 "2014-09-15T14:12:37Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > HOWEVER, they had every reason to suspect this was an act possibly involving prostitution, did they not? > > … > > And the police was not fully in their right to detain her until they established her identity? Right, all the best prostitutes have sex with their clients in broad daylight in front of witnesses. Which, to be fair, is probably breaking some sort of law even if money didn’t change hands… Do you believe they would have treated her any differently if she had shown her ID? What I want to know is, if we have video from four different angles of the Ferguson shooting, where’s the video of this? The witnesses had the time to call it in, but nobody pulled out a cell phone and took a picture? I’m guessing we’ll be seeing pictures & youtube soon, but this is taking longer than I expected. If, in fact, that’s what happened. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/184 "2014-09-15T14:13:09Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So HOWEVER, they had every reason to suspect this was an act possibly involving prostitution, did they not? I’m not getting the leap from PDA to prostitution. Hookers and the men who pay them generally go about their transactions surreptitiously, not in broad daylight on a busy street. Prostitutes also rarely look like they are running Saturday morning errands in their pajamas. There is nothing about the way she was dressed that suggested she was advertising sex. So the totality of the evidence doesn’t support prostitution. I think the cops were summoned to the area because someone reported public lewdness, but when they arrived and observed no lewdness, they came up with prostitution. But there was no evidence of prostitution. If she’d showed them her ID and lo and behold, prostitution had turned up on her record (even from way back when), how much you wanna bet she’d be hauled off to the station and fingerprinted? Maybe the charge would’ve been dropped, but since that is a greater inconvenience than the inconvenience essentially caused by asserting her rights in this instance, we are not in the position to judge her as stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/185 "2014-09-15T14:13:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I said, “Ask,” rather than “Make them,” and I was picturing an officer saying, “Look, guys, there’s kids right over there watching you – maybe you could find a more private place?” Unless there’s a crime being committed, I don’t view that as a legitimate function of a person authorized by the state to enforce the law with use of deadly force. The cops should not be “asking” you to so anything unless what you are doing now is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/186 "2014-09-15T14:18:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Did they observe money being passed in exchange for sex? Nope. Doesn’t mean that police can’t inquire about reported suspicious activity, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/187 "2014-09-15T14:19:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So explain this to me: > > The couple committed a misdemeanor. The cops showed up after the act had been completed and were not witness to it nor was there a witness present. HOWEVER, they had every reason to suspect this was an act possibly involving prostitution, did they not? Is that still considered a misdemeanor and are they not under obligation to question/investigate/detain until such time as they are satisfied an actual crime had not occurred? > > Additionally, while they were trying to conduct their investigation, the suspect played the race card, the “Don’t you know who I am?” card, the calling daddy because my mommy is sick and dying card and the “Talk to the hand, I’m outtie!” attitude. All in one breathless tirade when all they wanted from her was to get a positive ID. > > Is that a fair characterization of what happened (based on the voice recording)? > > And the police was not fully in their right to detain her until they established her identity? > > I’m curious because I guess I don’t understand what the justification is for making the claim the police exceeded their authority in this specific situation. OK. It’s important to understand the different levels of suspicion that can exist and what kinds of citizen/police interaction they justify. Even with no suspicion, police are permitted to approach anyone and ask them questions. This is known as a “consensual encounter.” It doesn’t implicate the Fourth Amendment at all, because it’s completely voluntary. As long as the citizen is free to disregard the police inquiries and go about his business, no seizure has occurred. If the police have “reasonable, articulable suspicion” of a felony, or of certain misdemeanors involving public safety, they can briefly detain (“seize”) a person to investigate and either confirm or dispel their suspicion. Reasonable, articulable suspicion exists when there are specific, articulable facts that give rise to a belief that a crime might be in progress. To arrest a person, the police must have “probable cause” to believe a felony was committed. Probable cause exists when the totality of facts known to the police supports the belief that a crime has likely occurred. And of course to ultimately convict someone of a crime, there must be proof beyond a reasonable doubt as to each and every element of the crime. The police exceeded their authority because the report they were given described a misdemeanor, not a felony, and when they arrived they did not see that misdemeanor in progress. So the rule is that a completed misdemeanor that doesn’t involve a risk to public safety cannot serve as the basis for reasonable suspicion. For this reason, police were certainly free to ask the pair questions…as long as the pair were free to disregard those questions and go about their business. But the moment the police seized the young lady, they implicated the Fourth Amendment’s guarantee against “unreasonable searches and seizures.” The courts have decided that a seizure for a completed misdemeanor based only on reasonable, articulable suspicion is not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/188 "2014-09-15T14:20:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Unless there’s a crime being committed, I don’t view that as a legitimate function of a person authorized by the state to enforce the law with use of deadly force. The cops should not be “asking” you to so anything unless what you are doing now is illegal. That’s interesting. It’s not what the law says, though. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/189 "2014-09-15T14:25:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The police exceeded their authority because the report they were given described a misdemeanor, not a felony, and when they arrived they did not see that misdemeanor in progress. So the rule is that a completed misdemeanor that doesn’t involve a risk to public safety cannot serve as the basis for reasonable suspicion. > > For this reason, police were certainly free to ask the pair questions…as long as the pair were free to disregard those questions and go about their business. But the moment the police seized the young lady, they implicated the Fourth Amendment’s guarantee against “unreasonable searches and seizures.” The courts have decided that a seizure for a completed misdemeanor based only on reasonable, articulable suspicion is not reasonable. Got it. Now I think I understand. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/190 "2014-09-15T14:29:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Unless there’s a crime being committed, I don’t view that as a legitimate function of a person authorized by the state to enforce the law with use of deadly force. The cops should not be “asking” you to so anything unless what you are doing now is illegal. Limited to just the circumstances Bricker stated I don’t see that as abusing their authority. Even a slight change such as the officer placing his hand on his holster, or speaking in a threatening tone would change that. Imagine a person carrying a heavy object and about to trip over a curb he couldn’t see. Should the police be precluded from saying “Watch out!” because the person might believe they were being threatened with arrest? There has to be some level of reasonableness applied. I think the problem is the number of times police do exceed their authority resulting in public distrust. Police should be trained in how to be polite and serve the public without instilling such fear. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/191 "2014-09-15T14:30:29Z")
The first I heard of the story, she admitted to sitting on his lap and making out and then someone came out to tell them to stop putting on a show. That would indicate PDA rather than sex to me. They were observed using a tissue to clean up in the new revelations but no one saw anyone pulling up their pants? > **[LAPD Confuses Black Actress Kissing White Partner for Prostitute](https://www.mic.com/articles/98826/lapd-confuses-black-actress-kissing-white-partner-for-prostitute)** > > Update, Sept 15: TMZ has obtained audio from the LAPD, who said that they were called because Watts was reportedly having sex with her boyfriend in public. According to TMZ, witnesses told police Watts and Lucas were allegedly having sex in the… ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/192 "2014-09-15T14:43:20Z")
The [CNN article](http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/14/showbiz/django-unchained-actress-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) states in the first paragraph: “Legal experts say the officer did have the right to request identification if he suspected illegal behavior.” Then says nothing else about who those legal experts are or what the legal justification is. Nice work! ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/193 "2014-09-15T14:46:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m not getting the leap from PDA to prostitution. Hookers and the men who pay them generally go about their transactions surreptitiously, not in broad daylight on a busy street. That’s what Hugh Grant should have said. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/194 "2014-09-15T14:47:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You understand that merely because the police don’t see the illegal activity happening when they arrive does not mean the 911 report no longer provides reasonable suspicion, right? > [@Bricker](#): > > Whether they should is another matter, of course, on which I offer no opinion, because there are too many variables. And I was commenting on what they should have done, not the legality of their actions. The police have pretty wide latitude in terms of stopping people, but that doesn’t mean all of those stops are wise. In this case they seem to have undertaken an overzealous pursuit of a misdemeanor offense and embarrassed their department in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/195 "2014-09-15T14:48:05Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > The [CNN article](http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/14/showbiz/django-unchained-actress-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_t1) states in the first paragraph: “Legal experts say the officer did have the right to request identification if he suspected illegal behavior.” Then says nothing else about who those legal experts are or what the legal justification is. Nice work! Well, technically, it’s true. Officers have the right to request identification from anyone, for any reason. As long as the person is free to disregard the officer’s inquiry and go about his business, that is. The officers do NOT have the right to detain someone under these circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Oliveritaly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oliveritaly/32/15233_2.png) [@Oliveritaly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oliveritaly)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/196 "2014-09-15T14:52:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Got it. > > Now I think I understand. > > Thank you. Another thanks from me Bricker. Interesting distinction and certainly something I never knew. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/197 "2014-09-15T14:56:28Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > That’s what Hugh Grant should have said. That wouldn’t have worked, since [what he was arrested for was lewd conduct](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/celebrity/hollywood/hugh-grant). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/198 "2014-09-15T14:58:56Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Do you believe they would have treated her any differently if she had shown her ID? She was handcuffed. The man with her was not. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/199 "2014-09-15T14:59:06Z")
> [@](#): > > When I say, “Making out hot and heavy,” it’s not a term of legal precision. But I picture that to include kissing and fondling, with hands under clothes. Republican porn. About as exciting as you thought. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/200 "2014-09-15T15:10:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So in **Jack Batty** world, a person who calls 911 is obligated to identify themselves, but a person being questioned by police isn’t, and is in fact allowed to just walk away if they believe the police are being mean to them? Christ I hate that sort of bullshit – “oh, so in you’re world police can handcuff anybody they want for any reason, but doubly so if it’s as a result of an anonymous tip” – see, I can do it too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=11)