# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/461 "2014-09-15T18:44:00Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > You have an interesting habit of responding with exagerations. But in fact if one knows the history of how the identification records and papers were used in the round ups of Jews in the France and the other occupied territories - and the horrible role played by persons like yourself in attitude, who just obeyed the authorities and produced the paperwork, then yes. So asking for ID _is_ morally equivalent to the Holocaust. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/462 "2014-09-15T18:44:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, the stop was not justified. You fail again. It is clear that in his mind that there is no limit and all actions of anything called authority are justified. Petit facho justement. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/463 "2014-09-15T18:44:40Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > Everyone is arguing fine legal points. All of those could’ve been determined IN COURT. The main issue is Watts doing the absolute wrong thing by giving the cops a hard time. As soon as the bf showed them her id, the whole incident was over. Had he not, the cop likely would’ve called for backup and arrested her. Upon which if she had resisted further or even if some hothead cop simply PERCEIVED she resisted further, she gets hurt. > > It is wholly irresponsible for anyone to argue she did the right thing. I wouldn’t advise my black daughter to do what she did. I doubt anyone here defending her would either. But if she had shown her ID, there wouldn’t have been a day in court. There wouldn’t have been any opportunity to address their behavior. How would that go? “They insisted on seeing my ID. I told them I didn’t want to, but showed them anyway to avoid the hassle”. Cops just say “We just asked. She showed us. Nothing improper”. There is no polite, entirely non-confrontational way to expose this kind of behavior. Which doesn’t mean it’s wrong to play along to stay safe–I wouldn’t blame anyone who does. But the only way to expose an implied threat is to make them make that threat explicit. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/464 "2014-09-15T18:45:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Of course, the stop _was_ justified at its inception, so none of this matters anyway. So you now appear to agree that Hiibel applies in California. Let’s return to the question of the stop being justified. Do you agree that _U.S. v. Grigg_ applies in California? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/465 "2014-09-15T18:46:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So asking for ID _is_ morally equivalent to the Holocaust. > > Noted. Again the distortions. Interesting your replying habits. No, blind justifications of authoritiarian action is the kind of habit that leads to this. So it is not the id asking that is equivalent, it is you _personally_ that is equivalent of the quislings that sent millions to their deaths. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/466 "2014-09-15T18:46:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s like some kind of weird fetish compels him to argue for expansive police powers. Repeatedly. Erroneously - I mean, in clearly demonstratively incorrect fashion. Across multiple threads over weeks and weeks. > > It’s really, really fascinating. And it’s not just him, either! That’s the crazy thing. God help us if there ever comes a time when all three branches of the U.S. government get overridden with people like **Smapti** et al. It won’t just be a dystopia. It’ll be deja vu all over again. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/467 "2014-09-15T18:46:25Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > The ONLY alternative to taking your grievances to court is a violent altercation. A cop is not likely to back down from your legal arguments. In this case, the cop only backed down when his request was complied with. So to answer your question, would I be ok with the cavity search? No. Am I willing to kill or die in resistance of it? Also, no. I agree. The cop gave you no choice in the matter and living is better than dying. But the cop’s actions were wrong. Where they not? And they’ll have proven to be wrong by the court? So ought not the police be prevented from committing wrongful acts before they decide to carry them out? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/468 "2014-09-15T18:46:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, the stop was not justified. You fail again. And so we go around in circles again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/469 "2014-09-15T18:47:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And so we go around in circles again. You’re the only one going in circles, because you’re unable to admit that the detainment was unlawful. **Bricker** has helpfully shown the court cases that determine that such a detainment is not lawful. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/470 "2014-09-15T18:49:19Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > It is wholly irresponsible for anyone to argue she did the right thing. I wouldn’t advise my **black** daughter to do what she did. I doubt anyone here defending her would either. Bolding mine. What an interesting thing to say, my friend. If what she did was so universally unadvisable, the race of your daughter shouldn’t even be on your mind. Yet it is. Why is that? Seems like if it were not for people exercising their rights like Watts did, people would not be properly educated about what our rights actually are. Even the board’s resident lawyer was ignorant. I shudder to think how many defendents were not properly represented because their counsel made the same error that **Bricker** did in interpreting the law, and now those folks are sitting behind bars because of it. Damn right she did the right thing. She’s done her part to educate the masses, which is a lot more than you and the unCleverbot **Smapti** can say. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/471 "2014-09-15T18:49:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re the only one going in circles, because you’re unable to admit that the detainment was unlawful. **Bricker** has helpfully shown the court cases that determine that such a detainment is not lawful. Except that such a detainment _is_ lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/472 "2014-09-15T18:50:51Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > No, blind justifications of authoritiarian action is the kind of habit that leads to this. So it’s insisting that people should obey the law that’s morally equivalent to the Holocaust. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/473 "2014-09-15T18:51:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Except that such a detainment _is_ lawful. No it’s not. There are circumstances during an investigation in which a cop can and cannot lawfully detain someone. Watts’ detainment fell into the unlawful category, due to the lack of reasonable suspicion for a felony, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/474 "2014-09-15T18:53:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No it’s not. There are circumstances during an investigation in which a cop can and cannot lawfully detain someone. Watts’ detainment fell into the unlawful category, due to the lack of reasonable suspicion for a felony, among other things. The presence of reasonable suspicion for a felony, or lack thereof, ceased to be relevant when she refused to identify herself. ---
**Author:** ![JesterX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JesterX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JesterX)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/475 "2014-09-15T18:54:31Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I get what you’re saying… but it puts all power and authority in police hands. An average person walking down the street minding his/her own business must therefore submit to any line of inquiry a police officer decides to single him/her out for without just cause. > > This seems to encourage hothead cop behaviour rather than discourage it. You can file complaints for minor unlawful cop behavior with local review boards or, if you’re really that determined, you can file a lawsuit. The ACLU pretty much exists for that type of stuff. My overall point is, if you’re in a threatening encounter, the immediate goal is to get out of it, not in deeper. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/476 "2014-09-15T18:54:39Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > There is no polite, entirely non-confrontational way to expose this kind of behavior. Which doesn’t mean it’s wrong to play along to stay safe–I wouldn’t blame anyone who does. But the only way to expose an implied threat is to make them make that threat explicit. I agree with this 100%. To require someone to be polite when they are standing up against authority is to ignore the human element here. Unlike some in this thread, I could care less if her refusal to show ID was based on self-preservation as opposed to some advanced knowledge of the law. Self-preservation is why we have rights to begin with, and if she was confident the cops had no reason to suspect of her prostitution, then she was within her rights to call their bluff by not submitting to them. These kind of checks and balances force cops to think twice before they insert themselves into the lives of ordinary citizens. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/477 "2014-09-15T18:54:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The presence of reasonable suspicion for a felony, or lack thereof, ceased to be relevant when she refused to identify herself. Wrong, as **Bricker** has noted and cited. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/478 "2014-09-15T18:55:06Z")
> [@JesterX](#): > > You can file complaints for minor unlawful cop behavior with local review boards or, if you’re really that determined, you can file a lawsuit. The ACLU pretty much exists for that type of stuff. My overall point is, if you’re in a threatening encounter, the immediate goal is to get out of it, not in deeper. Some people seem hellbent on finding themselves a hill to die on. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/479 "2014-09-15T18:55:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Some people seem hellbent on finding themselves a hill to die on. Like yourself, in defending unlawful behavior by cops. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/480 "2014-09-15T18:56:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Like yourself, in defending unlawful behavior by cops. Dropping the word “unlawful” into every single post doesn’t make it so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=25)