# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/541 "2014-09-15T19:27:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All three. This is contradictory, because under the first circumstance **Bricker** describes, the suspect cannot be detained lawfully. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/542 "2014-09-15T19:28:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is contradictory, because under the first circumstance **Bricker** describes, the suspect cannot be detained lawfully. Then the question contradicts itself as well; > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > **Smapti** , I’ll ask again because you haven’t answered: Cops can\*\* lawfully detain\*\* (emphasis mine) someone only under the circumstances laid out by **Bricker** in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17733260&postcount=418). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/543 "2014-09-15T19:29:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s also potentially the crime of rape, statuatory rape, sexual assault, or pandering. Do the police have enough evidence to determine _specifically_ that none of those events are occurring and that it’s only a misdemeanor? Well, you’re asking the wrong question. The police must have reasonable articulable suspicion FOR a crime. Remember: _specific, articulable facts_ that support the suspicion. If the police had seen injuries on the woman, or restraints, or if she screamed, “Please help me, I’m being raped,” then they could point to those facts as specific ones that support rape. Here, though, there were no facts that supported rape. Statutory rape? The pictures of Ms. Watts do not remotely suggest someone under 18. Sexual assault? Same problem as rape: no specific, articulable facts to support it. Pandering? No evidence of money nor things of value being exchanged. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/544 "2014-09-15T19:30:40Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then the question contradicts itself as well; No, because I was only asking about the portions of **Bricker** ’s post in which a detainment is lawful – there are only two circumstances. When you said all three, you were making a contradictory statement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/545 "2014-09-15T19:30:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > All three. It was a consensual encounter, a Terry stop, and a warrantless arrest? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/546 "2014-09-15T19:31:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is contradictory, because under the first circumstance **Bricker** describes, the suspect cannot be detained lawfully. More precisely, under the first circumstance the suspect is not “detained” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/547 "2014-09-15T19:32:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, you’re asking the wrong question. > > The police must have reasonable articulable suspicion FOR a crime. Remember: _specific, articulable facts_ that support the suspicion. If the police had seen injuries on the woman, or restraints, or if she screamed, “Please help me, I’m being raped,” then they could point to those facts as specific ones that support rape. Here, though, there were no facts that supported rape. > > Statutory rape? The pictures of Ms. Watts do not remotely suggest someone under 18. > > Sexual assault? Same problem as rape: no specific, articulable facts to support it. > > Pandering? No evidence of money nor things of value being exchanged. None of which they could have determined without stopping them, which you’re asserting they had no power to do in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/548 "2014-09-15T19:32:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It was a consensual encounter, a Terry stop, and a warrantless arrest? I am reminded of the joke about the defense strategy in a damaged rental-car case: “First, I will prove that my client never touched this car. Second, I will prove that this car was already damaged when my client took possession. Third, I will prove that my client returned it in perfect condition.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/549 "2014-09-15T19:33:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It was a consensual encounter, a Terry stop, and a warrantless arrest? Over the course of the encounter it progressed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/550 "2014-09-15T19:34:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Over the course of the encounter it progressed. If it’s a consensual encounter, then she has the right to refuse to cooperate and walk away. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/551 "2014-09-15T19:35:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If it’s a consensual encounter, then she has the right to refuse to cooperate and walk away. It stopped being consensual when she started yelling. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/552 "2014-09-15T19:37:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It stopped being consensual when she started yelling. No, it stopped being consensual (though it never should have stopped being consensual – the cops did not have the legal right to detain her) when she was detained unlawfully. Yelling is not against the law. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/553 "2014-09-15T19:42:05Z")
I’m guessing in Smapti-world, cops have the right to escalate an interaction as they please, because possible felonies. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/554 "2014-09-15T19:42:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it stopped being consensual (though it never should have stopped being consensual – the cops did not have the legal right to detain her) when she was detained unlawfully. Yelling is not against the law. [In some jurisdictions it can be considered assault.](http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/13/man-charged-with-assault-for-yelling-at) [Including California.](http://www.alan.com/2014/08/31/california-man-arrested-for-allegedly-yelling-white-power-and-trying-to-stab-black-guy/) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/555 "2014-09-15T19:43:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [In some jurisdictions it can be considered assault.](http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/13/man-charged-with-assault-for-yelling-at) Oh good, another bit of insanity for you to defend. You’ll keep the Pit full yet! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/556 "2014-09-15T19:44:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [In some jurisdictions it can be considered assault.](http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/13/man-charged-with-assault-for-yelling-at) The link you provided does not provide any evidence that yelling is assault in any particular district, much less the district of Watts’ detainment. Just because cops arrested someone for yelling does not mean that the cops were correct in the eyes of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/557 "2014-09-15T19:44:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m guessing in Smapti-world, cops have the right to escalate an interaction as they please, because possible felonies. The police didn’t escalate the interaction. Watts did. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/558 "2014-09-15T19:47:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [In some jurisdictions it can be considered assault.](http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/13/man-charged-with-assault-for-yelling-at) > > [Including California.](http://www.alan.com/2014/08/31/california-man-arrested-for-allegedly-yelling-white-power-and-trying-to-stab-black-guy/) Your second link describes someone who was arrested after threatening murder and then trying to stab someone. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/559 "2014-09-15T19:47:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, you’re asking the wrong question. > > The police must have reasonable articulable suspicion FOR a crime. Remember: specific, articulable facts that support the suspicion. If the police had seen injuries on the woman, or restraints, or if she screamed, “Please help me, I’m being raped,” then they could point to those facts as specific ones that support rape. Here, though, there were no facts that supported rape. > > Statutory rape? The pictures of Ms. Watts do not remotely suggest someone under 18. > > Sexual assault? Same problem as rape: no specific, articulable facts to support it. > > Pandering? No evidence of money nor things of value being exchanged. > [@Smapti](#): > > None of which they could have determined without stopping them, which you’re asserting they had no power to do in the first place. Actually, _all_ of which they could have determined without stopping them, if these things had happened… if they saw injuries or restraints, heard her scream, saw money or a box of chocolates changing hands… they saw and heard nothing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/560 "2014-09-15T19:48:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The police didn’t escalate the interaction. Watts did. Yes they did – they detained her unlawfully. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=29)