# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/721 "2014-09-17T05:35:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It’s also potentially the crime of rape, statuatory rape, sexual assault, or pandering. Do the police have enough evidence to determine _specifically_ that none of those events are occurring and that it’s only a misdemeanor? Police don’t set out to determine that nothing ever happened; that isn’t their job. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/722 "2014-09-17T07:08:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This unnecessary intrusion created a situation where someone was forced to invoke their civil rights lest they be taken advantage of by a government authority. And that the cops seemed to take it as a given that their actions were acceptable indicates they are either gravely indifferent to constitutional protections or gravely ignorant of them. Don’t know which is worse. Ignorance is more susceptible to curative processes than indifference, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/723 "2014-09-17T07:14:05Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What exactly is the point of asking everyone they come in contact with for ID? Is it just simply fishing for fugitives? I’ve asked this question before but never received an answer, it just seems odd to me that if they aren’t going to arrest someone what the point is. Officer safety, per People v. Richards. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/724 "2014-09-17T07:19:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. That’s not true. Hiibel applies in California just fine. > > But remember what Hiibel stands for. Hiibel stands for the proposition that a state law requiring a person legally detained by the police in a Terry stop to identify himself does not offend the Fourth Amendment. That’s true in each and every state. > > California does not have a “must identify yourself,” law. So what doesn’t apply here is: no California state law requires a person to identify themselves during a Terry stop. If California had such a law, Hiibel would validate its constitutionality. > > This distinction is important, because Hiibel ALSO says that any state law that required a person to identify themselves OUTSIDE the context of a lawful detention is unconstitutional. That’s what happened here: there was no lawful detention, so any attempt on the officer’s part to require identification was illegal. > > Per Hiibel. 🙂 ?? What California law requires a person to identify themselves OUTSIDE the context of a lawful detention? I don’t think you’re correct that Hiibel applies in California. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/725 "2014-09-17T10:23:44Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Where do you draw the line between being a “loud-mouth rabble rouser” and just being an unpleasant, entitled bitch? Do you think cops are allowed to police our personalities? Seriously, your questions reveal a disturbing mindset: that what is most important above all is that people being harrassed by cops be _nice_. I disagree. I think what is most important is that cops not create conflicts where none are needed. > [@](#): > > If an identical encounter had happened in a different state, in which minor differences in law had meant that the temporary detainment pending ID _was_ legal, would that change the moral statue of the woman’s actions? I would still see moral courage in her actions. She wasn’t doing anything wrong when the cops accosted her, and the conflict their intrusion caused would have been just as unnecessary in a state that allows detainment. If she’d been arrested for prostitution back in 1999, that doesn’t mean she was hooking that day. And yet the cops could have used that information to haul her to the station. Do you not see the injustice in this? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/726 "2014-09-17T10:35:48Z")
> [@grude](#): > > What exactly is the point of asking everyone they come in contact with for ID? Is it just simply fishing for fugitives? I’ve asked this question before but never received an answer, it just seems odd to me that if they aren’t going to arrest someone what the point is. Fishing for fugitives isn’t that ridiculous an idea. My local police blotter has countless mentions of “was found to have a warrant out of XYZ, and was taken into custody”. For low level offenses, it’s not useful for the police to stake out a person’s house, or schedule multiple attempts to pick them up which may be dangerous if you’re going to demand entry to make the arrest. But, if the person is standing right in front of you, and has a warrant out, you can just slap the cuffs on and bring them in. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/727 "2014-09-17T11:03:46Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > what is most important above all is that people being harrassed by cops be _nice_. Harassed? The cop was doing his job, responding to the scene of a complaint. From the moment he showed up she was giving him an earful of shit about him being a racist. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/728 "2014-09-17T11:36:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How about if they ask to search your vehicle? I’ve been asked twice and declined twice. The first was triggered by hemostats in plain view during a speeding stop. They had earlier been in a first aid kit. When I rummaged in the kit to get band aids for a friend, I left them sitting out. The cop grumbled a bit and let me go. My car was clean, had he searched anyway. The second time was at a sobriety checkpoint. I was sober, but my army jacket reeked of cannabis. I had left the jacket at a friend’s apartment where much weed was being smoked, although I didn’t have the opportunity to join in. I picked up the jacket after visiting my mother in the hospital and other errands. The cop called for backup. The responding officer flashed a light in my eyes and saw I was not high. He told the first cop to drop it and I was allowed to leave. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/729 "2014-09-17T11:40:13Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Harassed? The cop was doing his job, responding to the scene of a complaint. From the moment he showed up she was giving him an earful of shit about him being a racist. **you with the face** is speaking about the bigger picture. It doesn’t matter whether the cops were nice or mean. A right is a right, and a person shouldn’t be penalized or be given a hard time for simply invoking that right. Even if they are hysterical while doing it. A cop can nicely ask you to let them in your house to search for weapons or whatever else they deem contraband . And you can tell them to get the hell off of your property if they don’t have a warrant. A cop can _nicely_ do a lot of things they have no business doing. They can also nicely throw your ass in jail and ruin the rest of your life. Citizens need to feel empowered enough to do whatever they can do within the law to keep this from happening. It’s great that you don’t have a problem being a softie in front of the police. But cops can be corrupt and unethical. They can plant evidence on you, or they can find probable cause in something innocuous. Maybe you are at low risk of this happening to you, but for some of us, this isn’t the case. Knowing where one stands within the law and being brave enough to use that knowledge is just as important as knowing self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/730 "2014-09-17T12:34:43Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > **you with the face** is speaking about the bigger picture. It doesn’t matter whether the cops were nice or mean. A right is a right, and a person shouldn’t be penalized or be given a hard time for simply invoking that right. Even if they are hysterical while doing it. I’ll agree with you, but it has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. When the police investigate a 911 call, that’s not harassment. That’s the police doing the job we expect of the police. Declaring it harassment is poisoning the interaction right from the start. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/731 "2014-09-17T13:01:28Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’ll agree with you, but it has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. > > When the police investigate a 911 call, that’s not harassment. That’s the police doing the job we expect of the police. Declaring it harassment is poisoning the interaction right from the start. So what? Whether or not it’s “poisoning the interaction”, the police had no right or reason to detain Watts. Being obnoxious to cops is not a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/732 "2014-09-17T13:59:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So what? Whether or not it’s “poisoning the interaction”, the police had no right or reason to detain Watts. agreed > [@](#): > > Being obnoxious to cops is not a crime. Is this the standard by which we judge interactions with other humans, whether or not it’s a crime? You can assert your rights without being obnoxious. If you choose to be obnoxious while asserting your rights, I feel comfortable criticizing your behavior. ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/733 "2014-09-17T14:10:13Z")
There are pictures and more details, including the fact that the office workers sent someone to ask the pair to stop but they refused: ['Django Unchained' Actress -- We Got the Pictures ... And It Looks Like Sex](http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/17/django-unchained-actress-racism-lapd-daniele-watts-pictures-photos/) I wonder if that particular assignment was considered of the “you just drew the short straw” kind. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/734 "2014-09-17T14:10:37Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Is this the standard by which we judge interactions with other humans, whether or not it’s a crime? > > You can assert your rights without being obnoxious. If you choose to be obnoxious while asserting your rights, I feel comfortable criticizing your behavior. Okay. If all you’re saying is “Watts was acting obnoxious”, then go right ahead. If you’re trying to justify the cop’s behavior, or excuse the cop in any way, by this criticism of Watts, then I disagree. Cops should behave the same way whether someone is obnoxious or not, as long as they’re abiding the law. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/735 "2014-09-17T14:14:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. If all you’re saying is “Watts was acting obnoxious”, then go right ahead. If you’re trying to justify the cop’s behavior, or excuse the cop in any way, by this criticism of Watts, then I disagree. Cops should behave the same way whether someone is obnoxious or not, as long as they’re abiding the law. Another way of looking at it, if she was behaving in some other obnoxious way than getting mildly hostile and confrontational, such as replying to his question in limerick form, or haiku, would the cop be justified in cuffing her? Well, maybe if she mimed her response… ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/736 "2014-09-17T14:41:29Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > When the police investigate a 911 call, that’s not harassment. That’s the police doing the job we expect of the police. Declaring it harassment is poisoning the interaction right from the start. It’s harassment if the cops demand info from you that they are not entitled to have. It’s harassment if they deny you free passage to go about your business in peace. It’s harassment if they physically restrain if you don’t submit to their requests. If I go to the doctor and he starts criticizing the shape and size of my breasts in a sexually provocative manner during my physical exam, would anyone berate me if my immediate reaction was to curse him/her out? Seriously doubt it. I expect there would be unanimous sympathy. If my boss decides to lock me in the building until I complete a stupid work assignment, would anyone fault me for yelling and calling them names? No. Everyone would agree that boss was the bad guy for kidnapping me and causing me unnecessary distress. Only the fascist psychos would expect me to take all of this stoically. In both of these examples, there is professional misconduct and/or unlawful conduct. So answer me this: Why is human emotion permitted when non-law enforcement crosses the line, but suddenly put the bad actor in a cop’s uniform and we’re expected to be polite and calm? The implication is that cops are entitled to hurt us if we dare to piss them off. Too many people are socially programmed to blindly defer to the police, even when they are abusing their power and even when they are violating our rights. We treat people who express anger in the face of police harassment like someone who, at best, is “sassing” a parental figure, and at worst, someone who deserves to be shot/killed/locked up. To say this is troubling is an understatement. If blind obedience to government authorities had never been questioned, forget about the Civil Rights movement. There wouldn’t have even been a U.S. Ben Franklin and the rest are reading this thread from the grave and probably having zombie conniption fits. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/737 "2014-09-17T14:46:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay. If all you’re saying is “Watts was acting obnoxious”, then go right ahead. If you’re trying to justify the cop’s behavior, or excuse the cop in any way, by this criticism of Watts, then I disagree. Not excusing the cop overstepping his authority. I felt his behavior, the way he was acting, was not particularly notable or offensive, though he illegally detained her, and that should be addressed by the LAPD. > [@](#): > > Cops should behave the same way whether someone is obnoxious or not, as long as they’re abiding the law. They should, but they won’t, because they’re people. You sit down at a restaurant, and when the waitress comes up you say “Look, Honey, your failure to get a decent job isn’t really my problem, it’s yours. The only tip you’re getting from me today is ‘get a better job’.” You “should” get the same service as the person who comes in every week, is pleasant, and tips well. Now, I would not accept the waitress spitting in your food, but I would not be surprised if the other guy got better service than you did. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/738 "2014-09-17T14:55:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You sit down at a restaurant, and when the waitress comes up you say “Look, Honey, your failure to get a decent job isn’t really my problem, it’s yours. The only tip you’re getting from me today is ‘get a better job’.” You “should” get the same service as the person who comes in every week, is pleasant, and tips well. Now, I would not accept the waitress spitting in your food, but I would not be surprised if the other guy got better service than you did. I think waitresses and cops should be judged by different standards. Either way, for a customer or someone being questioned, behaving obnoxiously is wrong (a little bit). But using your authority as a cop to ‘punish’ someone for being obnoxious is a million times worse than a waitress sassing back a customer, or being rude to a customer. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/739 "2014-09-17T14:56:58Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I don’t think you’re correct that Hiibel applies in California. _Hiibel_ applies everywhere in the US. I think you mean California may not have chosen to take advantage of it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/740 "2014-09-17T15:03:35Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You sit down at a restaurant, and when the waitress comes up you say “Look, Honey, your failure to get a decent job isn’t really my problem, it’s yours. The only tip you’re getting from me today is ‘get a better job’.” You “should” get the same service as the person who comes in every week, is pleasant, and tips well. Now, I would not accept the waitress spitting in your food, but I would not be surprised if the other guy got better service than you did. Dude, you’re comparing customer service at a restaurant to unlawful conduct by a cop that results in someone’s civil rights being violated. I’ma need you to see these are apples and oranges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=38)