# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/801 "2014-09-17T18:12:00Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > You’ve missed the point that he was legally entitled to ask for her ID and detain her. > > ['Django Unchained' Actress Detained By Police Following Public Display Of Affection - CBS Los Angeles](http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/09/14/django-unchained-actress-daniele-watts-accosted-by-police-following-public-display-of-affection/) You should try reading the thread before posting. Short version: what you just said was wrong, as documented by the lawyers posting to this thread, which you should have read before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/802 "2014-09-17T18:13:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He was not being lawfully detained. Police had reasonable suspicion that he was in the process of trespassing; thus, per the lawyers in this thread, they had a right to detain him. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/803 "2014-09-17T18:14:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > There was nothing that made this guy a “self-entitled jerk” except that he wasn’t afraid to assert his rights. He himself didn’t have some legal-based knowledge of what his rights were. He was just going by his own uneducated determination that since there was no sign about it he was entitled to remain there. A guy who just makes up his own expansive determination of his own rights and insists on aggresively enforcing them to the point of hostile confrontation with the police when it would cost him nothing to just comply and ease the situation is a self-entitled jerk in my books. (That goes for both Lollie and Watts.) YMMV, of course. But I personally have no sympathy for either of these people, and - more importantly - don’t regard what happened to them as any sort of threat to the law-abiding public-at-large, of any ethnic group. To the contrary, as above, to the extent that there’s a threat to the people it’s from the actions of these people themselves, who make the cops feel more threatened and on edge when dealing with the public (and frankly, the cops are frequently pretty arrogant to begin with). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/804 "2014-09-17T18:15:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Police had reasonable suspicion that he was in the process of trespassing; thus, per the lawyers in this thread, they had a right to detain him. They did not have reasonable suspicion that he was in the process of trespassing, since he was in a public place. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/805 "2014-09-17T18:14:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, they Tased him for repeatedly trying to walk away while he was lawfully detained and for refusing to allow them to handcuff him. Was he lawfully detained? Make that case, with specifics. What kind of detention was it? Was it a Terry stop? Was it probable cause? What facts supported the officers’ determinations, and what crime was involved? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/806 "2014-09-17T18:17:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He himself didn’t have some legal-based knowledge of what his rights were. He was just going by his own uneducated determination that since there was no sign about it he was entitled to remain there. > > A guy who just makes up his own expansive determination of his own rights and insists on aggresively enforcing them to the point of hostile confrontation with the police when it would cost him nothing to just comply and ease the situation is a self-entitled jerk in my books. (That goes for both Lollie and Watts.) > > YMMV, of course. But I personally have no sympathy for either of these people, and - more importantly - don’t regard what happened to them as any sort of threat to the law-abiding public-at-large, of any ethnic group. To the contrary, as above, to the extent that there’s a threat to the people it’s from the actions of these people themselves, who make the cops feel more threatened and on edge when dealing with the public (and frankly, the cops are frequently pretty arrogant to begin with). I think it’s been shown that, statistically, black people are more likely to have hostile encounters with police when they’ve committed no crimes, and it’s reasonable to see these two instances – in which a black person was detained (and/or tazed) while not committing any crime – as possible further examples of this pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/807 "2014-09-17T18:18:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Is it about the case in the OP? No. Thus, a hijack. Yeah, let’s get back to **Smapti** insisting that the law is what he thinks it is, rather than what it is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/808 "2014-09-17T18:18:57Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > He himself didn’t have some legal-based knowledge of what his rights were. He was just going by his own uneducated determination that since there was no sign about it he was entitled to remain there. How do you know this? > [@](#): > > A guy who just makes up his own expansive determination of his own rights and insists on aggresively enforcing them to the point of hostile confrontation with the police when it would cost him nothing to just comply and ease the situation is a self-entitled jerk in my books. (That goes for both Lollie and Watts.) Even if he was just guessing about his rights, do you believe it’s appropriate for the police to taze someone who is not committing any crime, simply for being obnoxious? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/809 "2014-09-17T18:21:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They did not have reasonable suspicion that he was in the process of trespassing, since he was in a public place. “In a public place” != “not trespassing”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/810 "2014-09-17T18:23:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Was he lawfully detained? > > Make that case, with specifics. > > What kind of detention was it? Was it a Terry stop? Was it probable cause? What facts supported the officers’ determinations, and what crime was involved? The police had been informed that he was loitering in an employees-only area of the skywalk and had refused instructions by security to leave. When the police arrived, he was loitering in the same vicinity. The police have reasonable suspicion that he was trespassing, as he has refused an order by the lawful possessors of the property to move along, and thus have the authority to detain him per Terry. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/811 "2014-09-17T18:23:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it’s been shown that, statistically, black people are more likely to have hostile encounters with police when they’ve committed no crimes, and it’s reasonable to see these two instances – in which a black person was detained (and/or tazed) while not committing any crime – as possible further examples of this pattern. It’s also reasonable to see these two instances as possible further examples of black people taking an attitude with cops, and causing these hostile encounters. Which is closer to the truth in my estimation. If you start off with a hostile attitude to the cops and the prior assumption that cops are racists who are out to get you, then you’re more likely to have all sorts of these types of encounters. At the same time, if you start off with the assumption that the world is full of racism and it’s your sacred mission to fight it, then you’re more likely to interpret these as examples of racism on the part of cops and/or to twist it into a discussion of racism on the part of cops even without explicitly finding anything in these instances that fits into it. Which, of course, explains your posts to this thread and to any number of other threads on related topics. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/812 "2014-09-17T18:24:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Even if he was just guessing about his rights, do you believe it’s appropriate for the police to taze someone who is not committing any crime, simply for being obnoxious? He was charged with trespassing, disorderly conduct, and obstruction of police business. Is it your assertion that none of those things are crimes? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/813 "2014-09-17T18:25:55Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > This is going to be a matter of “what’s the definition of harassment”, but to me harassment requires some sort of animosity, a “I’m going to fuck with you now” purpose. I believe that the cop thought, and still thinks, that he was legally authorized to detain her for ID purposes. I think he’s wrong, but I don’t believe his intent was to harass Watts, I believe his intent was to do his job. Harrassment is when someone badgers someone else to do something in the face of resistance. Their intent is irrelevant. I’ve been harassed by men on the street. Maybe in their minds they were just being flirtatious, flattering, and friendly, but hounding me for a date, my phone number, or my attention or planting themselves in my way to obstruct my movement constitutes harassment because it’s unwanted and obviously so. A cop knows that their uniform carries power, and that when they ask questions, there is coerciveness implied that is not implied by a non-cop. To use that power to pressure someone unlawfully is harassment, even if they think they’re entitled to do whatever they want. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/814 "2014-09-17T18:28:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “In a public place” != “not trespassing”. Cite that one can trespass in a public place? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/815 "2014-09-17T18:29:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The police had been informed that he was loitering in an employees-only area of the skywalk and had refused instructions by security to leave. When the police arrived, he was loitering in the same vicinity. When they arrived, he was not loitering, and he was in a public place. Waiting for one’s children is not loitering. It’s pretty easy to argue that his duty to his children far outweighs his duty to an incorrect cop. > [@](#): > > The police have reasonable suspicion that he was trespassing, as he has refused an order by the lawful possessors of the property to move along, and thus have the authority to detain him per Terry. They did not have reasonable suspicion he was trespassing, and he did not refuse an order from the “lawful possessor”. You’re just wrong on everything here. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/816 "2014-09-17T18:29:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I think this is still a bit murky. . Which is even more reason why tazing the guy was crazy and abusive. If it’s murky, the given of the doubt should be given to the guy who has already left the area in question. There was no need for them to escalate things to violence when the issue was not only petty but murky too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/817 "2014-09-17T18:31:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s also reasonable to see these two instances as possible further examples of black people taking an attitude with cops, and causing these hostile encounters. > > Which is closer to the truth in my estimation. If you start off with a hostile attitude to the cops and the prior assumption that cops are racists who are out to get you, then you’re more likely to have all sorts of these types of encounters. I’ll try to keep in mind that you believe that it’s the fault of black people that black people are disproportionately hassled with poor or no provocation by the police. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/818 "2014-09-17T18:33:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was charged with trespassing, disorderly conduct, and obstruction of police business. > > Is it your assertion that none of those things are crimes? All those charges were dropped by the City as baseless, and he wasn’t charged until after he was tazed. Acting obnoxiously towards cops is absolutely not justification for detainment or tazing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/819 "2014-09-17T18:34:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When they arrived, he was not loitering, and he was in a public place. Notwithstanding your assertion that he was not on the building’s property, which has not been established, he was in any event within several feet of it and easily capable of stepping back into it at any time. Would it have been sufficient for you if the police had stood there and watched him to make sure he did not amble back into the area he had been trespassed from, assuming he wasn’t still there? > [@](#): > > Waiting for one’s children is not loitering. No, that’s the _definition_ of loitering. > [@](#): > > and he did not refuse an order from the “lawful possessor”. If the security officers weren’t agents of the building as lawful possessor, then the police _were_ agents of the city as lawful possessor. He was trespassing either way. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/820 "2014-09-17T18:37:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ll try to keep in mind that you believe that it’s the fault of black people that black people are disproportionately hassled with poor or no provocation by the police. Tough words from a tough guy. You can do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=42)