# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/981 "2014-09-18T14:40:49Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What does that have to do with the point I was making? If it’s not a big deal to give cops your name, then it shouldn’t be a big deal to tell cops your name is “Ham Sandwich”. The question, though, is what value does this info have to them when investigating whether a crime has occurred? I mean, if it’s not a big deal and all, you should explain that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/982 "2014-09-18T14:42:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If _asking someone their name_ is “overstepping their bounds”, then clearly we’ve gone way off the deep end in terms of allowing the cops to do their job. No, arresting someone for not providing ID when they had no basis to stop the person in the first place is overstepping their bounds. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/983 "2014-09-18T14:51:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If it’s not a big deal to give cops your name, then it shouldn’t be a big deal to tell cops your name is “Ham Sandwich”. It’s not a big deal to give cops your name in that it doesn’t negatively impact your life to nearly the same degree that living (as a black person) under Jim Crow segregation laws would impact your life. Would you agree with that? Point being that the extent to which you go in fighting the injustices (or alleged injustices) of the system should be proportionate to how big of a deal (in terms of negative impact) those injustices are. What’s appropriate for someone fighting the Jim Crow system is not necessarily appropriate for someone inappropriately asked to provide some ID. (Or frustrated at the DMV.) > [@](#): > > The question, though, is what value does this info have to them when investigating whether a crime has occurred? I mean, if it’s not a big deal and all, you should explain that. I have some thoughts about this too, but you’re using this to confuse the issue so I’m going to pass at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/984 "2014-09-18T14:57:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Point being that the extent to which you go in fighting the injustices (or alleged injustices) of the system should be proportionate to how big of a deal (in terms of negative impact) those injustices are. What’s appropriate for someone fighting the Jim Crow system is not necessarily appropriate for someone inappropriately asked to provide some ID. 1. Have you actually compared the extent of the tactics being used to fight this in comparison to those used to fight Jim Crow and found them disproportionate? 2. What if the “proportionate” tactics you advocate are ineffective? Really, it seems to me you’re not arguing for proportionality at all, but rather just giving up and accepting it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/985 "2014-09-18T14:58:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We achieved same-sex equality in this country without people getting their skulls cracked in. what is this i don’t even ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/986 "2014-09-18T15:02:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He had suspicion that prostitution was taking place. Many prostitutes are repeat offenders. Therefore he has reasonable suspicion to believe a felony had occurred. Thats a bootstrap argument and it seems like you and others are falling into a lot of bootstrapping in this thread. E.g. her refusal to produce identification provided the suspicion that warranted them asking for her identification. We can treat her as a possible felon because we suspect she may be a prostitute (because she si a black woman with a white man who refuses to produce ID that she is not obligated to produce) and therefore we can detain her and force her to produce ID, and as we know, if we suspect someone of prostitution we can assume that she has been convicted of prsotitution before. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/987 "2014-09-18T15:02:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s not a big deal to give cops your name in that it doesn’t negatively impact your life to nearly the same degree that living (as a black person) under Jim Crow segregation laws would impact your life. Would you agree with that? You do realize the same kind of belittling sentiments were expressed during Jim Crow, right? “It’s not a big deal to sit in the back of the bus. It doesn’t negatively impact your life to nearly the same degree that living in slavery did.” “It’s not a big deal to drink from the colored water fountains. It doesn’t negatively impact your life to nearly the same degree that being denied the right to vote did.” No, it is not a big deal to give your cops your name…if you know for a fact that the cops won’t use that information to fabricate probable cause and charge you with a crime you didn’t commit. Sadly, black people have never had the confidence that this won’t happen to them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/988 "2014-09-18T15:03:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Bull. We achieved same-sex equality in this country without people getting their skulls cracked in. We’ve achieved same-sex equality? > [@](#): > > They have far more respect for either than the anarchists you choose to side with. Coming from the guy who has stated the “right” thing for a German citizen to do if a Jewish family asks for help in hiding is to turn them into the Nazis, and from the guy who said it would be “wrong” to help enslaved people escape from slavery, this is pretty rich. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/989 "2014-09-18T15:04:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. Have you actually compared the extent of the tactics being used to fight this in comparison to those used to fight Jim Crow and found them disproportionate? I’m not the guy who introduced the Jim Crow motif here. I’m just responding to it. > [@](#): > > 1. What if the “proportionate” tactics you advocate are ineffective? Then you need to consider whether it’s a fight worth having. You can’t solve all the world’s problems, and if on balance what you’re contemplating has more negative than positive then it’s not worth doing. > [@](#): > > Really, it seems to me you’re not arguing for proportionality at all, but rather just giving up and accepting it. I’m not arguing for anything beyond the cases at hand. I’m saying if a cop asks for some ID and you think he may not have the legal right to it (and especially if you’re not a lawyer who has studied the issue and your assumption has no real basis) then on balance you’re in a better place and the world is better off if you comply versus getting all confrontational with the cop(s). Whether there are other alternatives or not is beyond the scope of my comments. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/990 "2014-09-18T15:06:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > My opinion has nothing to do with determining the veracity of the security guard’s assessment. There’s no reason the cops couldn’t have quickly surveyed the area and asked themselves whether the area was marked such that a reasonable person would know they were trespassing or not. If the bench wasn’t roped off and/or there was no signage indicating it was restricted, then the cops should have factored that into their assessment before hounding the person _who has already left the vicinity anyway_. Your opinion has everything to do with determining the veracity of the security guard. She told the cops that it was a private, employee-only area. There was nothing in the area to indicate that she was wrong or lying. Therefore the cops are acting in good faith and had a reason to briefly detain him. And he did not leave the vicinity already - that’s why the security guard called the cops. He refused to leave, twice. He did not leave the vicinity until the first cop showed up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/991 "2014-09-18T15:07:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If it’s not a big deal to give cops your name, then it shouldn’t be a big deal to tell cops your name is “Ham Sandwich”. Isn’t lying to the police during an investigation a crime in and of itself? Or maybe it’s only a crime if it’s in the furtherance of committing a crime like fraud, or to obstruct an investigation, or to avoid the cop knowing about a warrant against you. Jeez, we need another legal consult here. I’m beginning to hate the law. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/992 "2014-09-18T15:07:28Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Bull. We achieved same-sex equality in this country without people getting their skulls cracked … What gave you this idea? For decades in this country, cops felt free to go to gay bars and private homes and literally crack skulls whenever they felt like it. You’ve never heard of the Stonewall Riots? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/993 "2014-09-18T15:08:28Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Then you need to consider whether it’s a fight worth having. You can’t solve all the world’s problems, and if on balance what you’re contemplating has more negative than positive then it’s not worth doing. Obviously the disagreement here is if it’s worth doing once this has been considered. Some of us argue that, sometimes, it’s worth not cooperating with police even in such “minor” circumstances as being asked to identify one’s self. > [@](#): > > I’m not arguing for anything beyond the cases at hand. I’m saying if a cop asks for some ID and you think he may not have the legal right to it (and especially if you’re not a lawyer who has studied the issue and your assumption has no real basis) then on balance you’re in a better place and the world is better off if you comply versus getting all confrontational with the cop(s). In some circumstances, particularly circumstances in which one group of people is disproportionately targeted with negative treatment, it might actually make the world a better place to _not_ comply. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/994 "2014-09-18T15:08:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > As \*\*Bricker \*\*pointed out to you, unless the police officer has a reasonable suspicion that she had a previous conviction, he has no reasonable suspicion a felony has been committed. I don’t know if reasonable suspicion of a prior conviction is enough to create reasonable suspicion that a felony has been committed in this case. That seems too diluted for me. By that ratioanle I could assume that anyone in possession of drugs (another case where prior convictions can elevate the crime from misdemeanor to felony) has prior convictions for possession and therefore I can treat the incident as a felony. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/995 "2014-09-18T15:09:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not arguing for anything beyond the cases at hand. I’m saying if a cop asks for some ID and you think he may not have the legal right to it (and especially if you’re not a lawyer who has studied the issue and your assumption has no real basis) then on balance you’re in a better place and the world is better off if you comply versus getting all confrontational with the cop(s). The world is better off if the cops are never forced to change their illegal practices? You’re saying nothing more than what I’ve said above about myself —“I’m a coward so I would comply with the cops.” We should be supporting people who have the courage to stand up to the cops, not telling them that they should be cowards too. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/996 "2014-09-18T15:09:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You do realize the same kind of belittling sentiments were expressed during Jim Crow, right? > > “It’s not a big deal to sit in the back of the bus. It doesn’t negatively impact your life to nearly the same degree that living in slavery did.” > > “It’s not a big deal to drink from the colored water fountains. It doesn’t negatively impact your life to nearly the same degree that being denied the right to vote did.” How does this change anything? I agree that the same formula holds. The measures that would be justified to fight Jim Crow would not be as extreme as the one which would be justified to fight slavery. Now what? > [@](#): > > No, it is not a big deal to give your cops your name…if you know for a fact that the cops won’t use that information to fabricate probable cause and charge you with a crime you didn’t commit. Sadly, black people have never had the confidence that this won’t happen to them. I don’t think the cops really need your name to arrest you and charge you with a crime. And if you ask me, you’re _a lot_ more likely to have the cops fabricate charges against you if you take a controntational attitude towards them then if you just give them your name. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/997 "2014-09-18T15:11:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > While this might be the attitude I would want my children to take, I am glad that there are people who are willing to challenge and stand up to abuse of authority. I feel like we’re going around in circles here, but if a cop asks for your ID, and you’re absolutely certain that they don’t have that right, you can do three basic things: (1) give him your ID anyhow (2) repeatedly and calmly refuse (3) yell and scream and call him names My claim is that (2) is superior to (3) in at least three ways: (a) the cop is less likely to escalate his level of violence/abusiveness in response (b) it puts you firmly on the moral high ground. You’re the one that people are going to sympathize with. (c) it’s being decent to a fellow human being I suppose you could argue that yelling and screaming is more likely to make the incident end up with a million views on youtube if someone is recording it… but those million views will be a million people who end up having the same argument we’re having here, because they’ll see someone being unpleasant and abusive which will cloud the cop-overstepping-authority side of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/998 "2014-09-18T15:15:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The world is better off if the cops are never forced to change their illegal practices? > > You’re saying nothing more than what I’ve said above about myself —“I’m a coward so I would comply with the cops.” We should be supporting people who have the courage to stand up to the cops, not telling them that they should be cowards too. I’ve explained this [earlier](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17740020&postcount=939). ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/999 "2014-09-18T15:16:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Bull. We achieved same-sex equality in this country without people getting their skulls cracked in. That is so untrue to be laughable. And if you’re specifically referring to recent gains in SSM, part of why more rapid progress has been made is because of the work that was done for civil rights in the 50, 60 and 70s, that was used as examples and precedent. It’s not coincidence that many SSM arguments references the _Loving_ decision. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1000 "2014-09-18T15:17:15Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I feel like we’re going around in circles here, but if a cop asks for your ID, and you’re absolutely certain that they don’t have that right, you can do three basic things: > > (1) give him your ID anyhow > > (2) repeatedly and calmly refuse > > (3) yell and scream and call him names > > My claim is that (2) is superior to (3) in at least three ways: > > (a) the cop is less likely to escalate his level of violence/abusiveness in response > > (b) it puts you firmly on the moral high ground. You’re the one that people are going to sympathize with. > > (c) it’s being decent to a fellow human being > > I suppose you could argue that yelling and screaming is more likely to make the incident end up with a million views on youtube if someone is recording it… but those million views will be a million people who end up having the same argument we’re having here, because they’ll see someone being unpleasant and abusive which will cloud the cop-overstepping-authority side of the issue. You’re missing the point. Whichever option you choose, it is the legal and moral duty of the cop—as a representative of the government authorized to use force—to retrain his behavior and not escalate without legal justification. That is what the law should enforce. Your rubric denies the essential concept of a legal right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=51)