# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1141 "2014-09-18T19:10:13Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Since you didn’t specify a time, I have to assume that “Shodan’s Rule” means “I’ll ignore the request because I can’t find any time in the video where Mr. Lollie was screaming at the police”. It means “if they didn’t read it the first time, they won’t read it the second time either”. > [@](#): > > I watched that video, and I never heard Mr. Lollie screaming at the police officers. It either didn’t happen or we are interpreting the same thing differently. That’s probably it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1142 "2014-09-18T19:11:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > YES, I expect a police officer to know the laws and regulations concerning how he does his job. > > Here; let’s see if you think your sentiment is still valid when we apply it to a different profession: “You seriously expect an electrician with a year or two of training (mostly in electrical INSTALLATION techniques) to know all of the ins and outs of our electrical system?” > > Yes, I do expect him to know enough to do his job properly, without burning down even a part of the building he is working on. > > And I expect a cop to know enough to do their job properly, without injuring or killing even a part of the public he is serving. And police serve EVERYONE, even those that have committed crimes. ETA: Or are suspected of having committed crimes. You seriously expect an electrician with a year or two of installation experience to know what a EE knows? I mean…seriously? Why go to school and get a degree in electrical engineering when you could just have someone trained for a year or two to do the same thing (oh, and pay them a hell of a lot less)?? Because that’s the equivalent here. I wouldn’t expect an electrician with a year or two of training on installation to know the finer points of and electrical system…I’d expect him or her to be able to install stuff they were trained on and that’s pretty much it. And I’d pay them accordingly. I pay the big bucks for the double E to handle the deep thinking/knowledge stuff. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1143 "2014-09-18T19:12:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So, according to you, racism isn’t present until someone calls it racism? Or something like that? So I can hassle black people all day long, and not hassle white people, and as long as a cop doesn’t say anything about a person’s skin color, it isn’t racist? Is that what you think? And you’d be wrong. It was asshole Watts who introduced the racist angle. What part of the Watts incident do you claim was racist? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1144 "2014-09-18T19:17:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] > > They’re fully clothed. How does a man and woman wearing pants engage in sex? The same way you get to Carnegie Hall, kid. [/QUOTE] _:golf clap:_ And afterward, her boyfriend said to Watts, “You must have really enjoyed that - I could see your toes curling up with every thrust” and she said “No you just forgot to take off my pantyhose.” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1145 "2014-09-18T19:18:06Z")
We could actually come up with some “murky” situations and have all sorts of complex discussions about them. The real issue in the Lollie and Watts cases is not actually the supposedly complex legal questions but the behavior and choices of the cops. Here were two situations in which when the cops arrived on scene, there was no danger to the public, no threatening or disruptive behavior, and no flagrant violations of the law. The cops could have showed up, looked around, and left without doing anything at all, and this is something that cops do all the time on a day-to-day basis. So what’s really at issue is why did these cops—especially in the Lollie case, in which we have a full recording of the encounter—choose to be intrusive and authoritarian—when they could have just let it go and everyone would have been better off? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1146 "2014-09-18T19:27:55Z")
Black woman involved in a controversy. Tardville goes into a posting frenzy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1147 "2014-09-18T19:28:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So what’s really at issue is why did these cops—especially in the Lollie case, in which we have a full recording of the encounter—choose to be intrusive and authoritarian—when they could have just let it go and everyone would have been better off? We don’t pay the cops to “let it go”. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1148 "2014-09-18T19:33:02Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So what’s really at issue is why did these cops—especially in the Lollie case, in which we have a full recording of the encounter—choose to be intrusive and authoritarian—when they could have just let it go and everyone would have been better off? Right. And here is where I think focusing on legality can cause us to miss the forest for the trees. Even if we posit the cops did not break the law (and I think in both cases, they did), they chose to create conflicts were none were needed. In Watt’s case, instead of peppering the couple with loaded questions that put them on the defensive (“Who is she?”, What are you to her?") and instead of demanding to see their ID, the cops could have simply advised them that public sex was a misdemeanor and then went on their merry way. Very non-intrusive way to maintain order without violating anyone’s space. In Lollie’s case, instead of treating the guy like a suspect without even trying to establish first whether a crime had been committed, the cops could have determined that the incident had resolved by the time they reported and there was nothing more they needed to do. What they ended up doing is creating a violent scene that ended up getting them and their department in hot water. Other professionals are expected to temper their behavior so they aren’t using a sledgehammer to do what a smaller, less traumatic instrument can manage. Is it unreasonable for cops to do this? I don’t think so. It’s not just our safety that is stake, it’s theirs. If Lollie had been armed, he would have been in his rights to hurt the cop who tazed him. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1149 "2014-09-18T19:34:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So what’s really at issue is why did these cops—especially in the Lollie case, in which we have a full recording of the encounter—choose to be intrusive and authoritarian—when they could have just let it go and everyone would have been better off? They were probably following standard procedures. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1150 "2014-09-18T19:34:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We don’t pay the cops to “let it go”. For your own sake, you had better be a troll. Because I wouldn’t wish anyone to be this stupid for real. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1151 "2014-09-18T19:35:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > We don’t pay the cops to “let it go”. We pay the cops to follow the law, though. In the Watts case, they did not. They seized Watts in violation of her Fourth Amendment rights, when the only crime they were investigating was a misdemeanor that (if it happened) was completed prior to their arrival and did not impact public safety, and which therefore by the reasoning in US v. Grigg, 498 F.3d 1070 (9th Cir 2007), did not qualify as a basis for a Terry stop. Do you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1152 "2014-09-18T19:35:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > As well as training in lethal and non-lethal weapons use, basic training in crowd control, basic forensics training, psychological training, investigations training AND training in the finer points of the law such that they will know instantly the answer to whether or not they can reasonably ask/demand ID in any and all situations such that Monday morning quarterbacks like CNN, who has a legal staff (consultants being those lawyer type guys) got it wrong as well? And we’ll pay these guys with all of this vast training something like $30-50k a year and expect all of this out of them!! Yeah, that’s realistic. > > Why have courts and lawyers then? I mean, if you are putting all of that on the cops and training them in everything concerning the law, then why even bother with courts, judges and lawyers?? Of course, that’s a silly question…we have courts, judges and lawyers BECAUSE cops aren’t infallible machines of law enforcement and make those mistake thingies. The law is a complex and convoluted as well as a living system, and it’s simply unrealistic to demand that cops know every little detail, especially since it’s situational in the cases we are discussing in this thread. There are times cops CAN demand ID and detain someone who refuses, and times they can’t, and it’s not nearly as black and white/cut and dried as you are making it out to be. And it’s silly to expect a cop to know all of the permutations and be able to make an infallible call on when s/he can or can’t demand ID and detain if it’s not provided. > > Horse shit. I’m not black, but I am Hispanic and I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s in the South West, as well as spent time in places like the South and Texas where Mexicans aren’t exactly well loved either. There are plenty of Hispanics from my old neighborhood who would react exactly the same way when confronted with the police…and there are instances of people who did so being shot down in my old neighborhood. So don’t tell me that my experience isn’t valid on this. I CHOOSE not to be confrontational with the police because I know that bad things can happen if I do. I’m more a product of my time wrt my attitude on this, so if you want to say that some 20 something person today would feel radically different and I’m too old to have a valid opinion with these modern times then THAT might be a valid claim, but don’t trot out this 'your own experience should be put on hold when people tell you that this is simply not true for other people talk to any group of black men ’ bullshit. > > And I say again, horseshit. YOU are wrong. That’s why we have courts of law and lawyers, to judge the finer points of the law. You simply can’t have every cop on the street be an expert on every aspect and permutation of the law…and if you did, then you wouldn’t need judges, courts and lawyers. > > It’s unreasonable to expect beat cops to know every situational permutation of the law. And if that is your expectations then you are sadly uninformed. I work for the state, and we deal with cops all the time. They are like anyone else, they know some things and not others, and they make mistakes. Also, they aren’t exactly at the top of the pay scale…I make more than probably 95% of the various police forces we support. The only ones who make more are either the elected officials in the police force or the very top ranks. The vast majority of this post is an example of excluded middle arguments and strawmen. It’s not unreasonable to expect cops to know every aspect of the law that governs how they interact with the public, including how they interact with suspects and/or arrestees. IT’S THEIR JOB. What other profession are willing to cut some slack? Is it okay for ambulance personel to have no more working knowledge of human physiology and biology than you or I do? I mean, they can’t possiblt be expected to know every last thing about human biology, right, so it’s not their fault they gave you 10,000 mg of crystal meth to try and stop your heart attack, is it? How many other professions will you exempt from knowing how to conduct themselves during the vast majority of their workday? Pilots? Surgeons? Civil engineers? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1153 "2014-09-18T19:38:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It means “if they didn’t read it the first time, they won’t read it the second time either”. > That’s probably it. No one can read what you didn’t write. Since you won’t defend your assertions, we’ll just assume that they are baseless and without foundation in fact, like so much of what you write here. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1154 "2014-09-18T19:39:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > They were probably following standard procedures. If so, then these standard procedures should be amended. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1155 "2014-09-18T19:40:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > We pay the cops to follow the law, though. > > In the Watts case, they did not. They seized Watts in violation of her Fourth Amendment rights, when the only crime they were investigating was a misdemeanor that (if it happened) was completed prior to their arrival and did not impact public safety, and which therefore by the reasoning in US v. Grigg, 498 F.3d 1070 (9th Cir 2007), did not qualify as a basis for a Terry stop. > > Do you agree? **Bricker** , could you address the link in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17742610&postcount=1101) by F-P? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1156 "2014-09-18T19:40:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > For your own sake, you had better be a troll. Because I wouldn’t wish anyone to be this stupid for real. Still nope. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1157 "2014-09-18T19:44:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The vast majority of this post is an example of excluded middle arguments and strawmen. It’s not unreasonable to expect cops to know every aspect of the law that governs how they interact with the public, including how they interact with suspects and/or arrestees. IT’S THEIR JOB. What other profession are willing to cut some slack? Is it okay for ambulance personel to have no more working knowledge of human physiology and biology than you or I do? I mean, they can’t possiblt be expected to know every last thing about human biology, right, so it’s not their fault they gave you 10,000 mg of crystal meth to try and stop your heart attack, is it? I don’t expect ambulance personnel to know surgery or the finer points of medicine, I expect and pay them to be able to give first aid and life support to get them to the doctors that I pay a lot of money to know the finer points. I don’t think I’m doing either excluded middle OR strawmen here. I think you and some others have an unreasonable expectation that police should know what lawyers know, even though they don’t get paid nearly as much as lawyers and even though their jobs require them to be trained on a lot of other things that don’t include the finer points of the law. > [@](#): > > How many other professions will you exempt from knowing how to conduct themselves during the vast majority of their workday? Pilots? Surgeons? Civil engineers? All high paid specialized jobs, so kind of a strawman there (ironic, no? :p). I don’t expect an EMT to know what a surgeon knows, I don’t expect a flight attendant or grounds crew to know what a pilot does, and don’t expect someone on a road crew or building worker to know what a civil engineer knows. And I don’t expect a police officer to be as conversant in the finer points of the law as a lawyer. This doesn’t excuse the cops for doing something wrong. Again, this is exactly why we HAVE COURTS AND LAWYERS. When the cops do something wrong because either they didn’t know or they deliberately did something fucked up we have courts and judged and lawyers to review what happened, to argue both sides, to look up regulations and precedence and to make a ruling on it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1158 "2014-09-18T19:45:30Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > They were probably following standard procedures. Then the standard procedures are wrong. This is something that can be easily fixed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1159 "2014-09-18T19:47:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > We pay the cops to follow the law, though. > > In the Watts case, they did not. They seized Watts in violation of her Fourth Amendment rights, when the only crime they were investigating was a misdemeanor that (if it happened) was completed prior to their arrival and did not impact public safety, and which therefore by the reasoning in US v. Grigg, 498 F.3d 1070 (9th Cir 2007), did not qualify as a basis for a Terry stop. > > Do you agree? It seems so. But I am not sure if the Cop should be penalized. Clearly he had the right to REQUEST. It seems doubtful he had the right to DEMAND. It’s a rather fine point, that I dont know if we should DEMAND a mere Sergeant should be able to differentiate. Indeed some experts differ, as Fotheringay-Phipps cite shows. He was quite calm, and Watts playing the race card and the “Do you know who _I_ am?” card would tempt the patient of a saint. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1160 "2014-09-18T19:47:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So what’s really at issue is why did these cops—especially in the Lollie case, in which we have a full recording of the encounter—choose to be intrusive and authoritarian—when they could have just let it go and everyone would have been better off? Everyone? I suppose everyone would have been better off if the snitches who ratted on the couple fucking in public and the guy refusing to leave private property had kept their mouths shut and just let the misdemeanors go. Nobody is being hurt, they’re just breaking the law, but everybody would be better off if the cops didn’t get involved. Let it go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=57) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=59)