# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1281 "2014-09-21T17:41:12Z")
It was a judicially tested question of law, so the officer’s training, rationality and intent is not relevant to whether he acted legally or not. If a law has not yet been discovered, then it is possible (a teeny-weeny microscopic possibility approaching zero) for a court to find an officer’s conduct to be illegal but given the training, rationality and intent, not to toss the evidence gained by the officer’s well intentioned but illegal action. For example, the Canadian decision in [R. v. Spencer, 2014 SCC 43](http://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/14233/index.do) which is[being discussed in another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=725911) (and note that even then, Canadian courts are not as tough on such conduct as American courts tend to be). ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1282 "2014-09-21T17:54:36Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It was a judicially tested question of law, so the officer’s training, rationality and intent is not relevant to whether he acted legally or not. Obviously. But it certainly SHOULD be relevant to whatever consequences he ends up facing if it ends up that he acted illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1283 "2014-09-21T20:10:30Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > (a) I said none of the things you said I did. (For instance, a cop who looks at someone’s identification is OF COURSE going to write their name down in a little book, because not doing so would be RIDICULOUSLY NEGLIGENT. What if he needs that information later? Is he supposed to just remember it? Reading into that some big brother enemies list is just ludicrous.) > > (b) it’s ridiculous to read something into “allegedly” vs “apparently”, in that we’re not in a court of law here, and there are no legal standards of proof that are relevant. My guess, based on everything I’ve read, is that Watts and her husband (boyfriend?) were in fact sitting in a car, in public, engaging either in actual intercourse, or EXTREMELY heavy petting, so heavy that many people mistook it for actual intercourse. This led to them calling the cops, and the rest is history. There seem to be several different sources confirming that, and no one who was there seems to be disputing the broad strokes. In all my discussion of this issue, I’ve been assuming that that’s what really happened. Did something else happen? Well, maybe. In which case my remarks are irrelevant. Do I have PROOF of anything? Of course not, I’m just some guy on the internet expressing his opinion. **So… what’s your point exactly?** My point is that you seem disinclined, at the outset, with crediting anything that does not either absolve the authorities or blame the victim. Your bias glows like a metal rod left in a blacksmith’s forge. That’s my point. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1284 "2014-09-22T06:31:45Z")
[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/21/civil-rights-leaders-demand-django-unchained-actre/](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/21/civil-rights-leaders-demand-django-unchained-actre/) > [@](#): > > Project Islamic Hope President Najee Ali, Los Angeles Urban Policy Roundtable President Earl Ofari Hutchinson and other civil rights leaders held a meeting Friday morning, denouncing the “Django Unchained” actress and demanding she apologize to the community, a local CBS affiliate reported. Earl Ofari Hutchinson has thrown his legal analysis into the ring: > [@](#): > > “We began to see pictures that actually show that perhaps there was probable cause for the stop. There was probable cause for the detention,” he said. “You must have your facts. You can’t rush to judgment. If you do that, you have no credibility.” Also, according to a witness, there were boobs. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1285 "2014-09-22T08:52:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The clear message in 1968 was exactly what you’re saying now: the refusal to advise the citizen of the rationale for the encounter fuels distrust and suspicion. I’d actually argue that that exists anyways. The problem is, they are allowed to lie about their rationale, if I understand correctly. If not, they are definitely allowed to lie about what you are required to do. Knowing what I do about the law, I would not have trusted any cop that told me I had to give them ID. I would do my best to follow **Bricker** ’s advice and nothing more than what I have to. I’m white, but just knowing what cops can do is enough for me not to trust them. You can’t inspire trust when you are allowed to lie in the very situations I need to trust you on. There should be things that a cop cannot lie about (other than when undercover). That’s how you can gain trust, at least in those situations. It’s why I would trust that I’m going to get a real lawyer, because I know they can’t lie about that. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1286 "2014-09-22T13:54:48Z")
I’m a while male. But because my family is not of Italian descent, I learned to keep my head down and keep my mouth shut. Frank Rizzo taught an entire generation of Philadelphians what power means. That deeply entrenched distrust of all people NOT Italian-American, but most notably not white, persists to this very day. One other thing. To reiterate my last post in here: If you need to fuck in public, be prepared to show your I.D. to the police. Public fornication is illegal in California. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1287 "2014-09-22T16:12:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Stop junior moderating, **DrDeth** > [/Moderating] I richly deserve this Mod Note. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1288 "2014-09-23T01:58:23Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As repeatedly noted previously (by me and others) this is not at all a clear-cut legal issue, despite what various posters here have claimed, and all sorts of people whose legal credentials far surpass that of the posters here maintain that the cops were within their rights. I’ve posted one example above. > > Expecting cops to be experts on the law in such murky situations is not reasonable, 6 month police training course notwithstanding. I am not a California lawyer but the issues surrounding a terry stop seems like something that would be well trodden ground. That UCLA clinic professor sounds like he is either misunderstanding the facts or misunderstanding the law. I thought we had agreed that the cops could not detain the woman in the first place under California law. They can chase her down the street asking her for ID all they want but they cannot detain her without probable cause of a felony or a continuing or dangerous misdemeanor. Or at least that is what I thought we had established. So how can they arrest her for failure to produce ID even if it was with attitude? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1289 "2014-09-23T02:08:12Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which still isn’t an answer. Me, personally. No, I want to be the judge, jury and executioner but I wouldn’t trust anyone else with that power. I am entirely in favor of tyranny as long as I get to be the tyrant. But if I don’t get to be a tyrant I don’t want anyone else to be one either. So the compromise we have crafted to ensure that noone can be a tyrant is memorialized in the constitution and the bill of rights. And the inevitable cost of that is going to be criminals getting off on technicalities and committing more crimes. And when those criminals commit those crimes, we chase them down and arrest them, but hopefully this time the arresting officer doesn’t fuck it up so we have to let him go again. Now as a practical matter, detaining and arresting someone that turns out to be a wanted criminal does not result in the case being thrown out because of a lack of probable cause. Being a wanted criminal means that all the officer has to do is say “I thought I recognized him from America’s Most Wanted” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1290 "2014-09-23T02:09:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Pretty damn easy. I have done it. TMI. And people seemed to have taken a lot of photographs and I haven’t seen anything that shows anything more than heavy petting and kissing ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1291 "2014-09-23T02:12:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Expecting cops to be experts on the law in such murky situations is not reasonable, 6 month police training course notwithstanding. If a cop doesn’t know the law surrounding a terry stop then they shouldn’t be cops. How uncommon is being called to a completed misdemeanor (that poses no threat to public safety) that you don’t know the rules about what you can and cannot do in those situations? How uncommon is it for someone to refuse to produce ID? I expect cops to be expert in the sort of thing they are likely to see on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1292 "2014-09-23T02:14:39Z")
Here is a LA Times articles describing a ACLU lawyer’s legal interpretation of California law. [http://history.pgparks.com/sites\_and\_museums/Montpelier\_Mansion/Rental\_Information.htm](http://history.pgparks.com/sites_and_museums/Montpelier_Mansion/Rental_Information.htm) Relevant excerpt: > [@](#): > > If police reasonably suspect you of a crime, they can detain you to investigate that crime. Some states have what are called “Stop and Identify” statutes that require someone suspected of criminal activity to provide identification to police, making refusal a crime. California has no such statute, so if you refuse to provide an ID while police are detaining you, they can’t arrest you just for refusing. In Watt’s case, the cop had no need to establish her identity to carry out his “investigation” (put in quotes because it’s doubtful he was trying to investigate anything). Neither did the cops in Lollie’s case. And yet their identities’ became the bone the cops would not quit trying to dig up. It was like the word “no” fucked all their shit up. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1293 "2014-09-23T02:16:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You seriously expect an electrician with a year or two of installation experience to know what a EE knows? I mean…seriously? Why go to school and get a degree in electrical engineering when you could just have someone trained for a year or two to do the same thing (oh, and pay them a hell of a lot less)?? > > Because that’s the equivalent here. I wouldn’t expect an electrician with a year or two of training on installation to know the finer points of and electrical system…I’d expect him or her to be able to install stuff they were trained on and that’s pretty much it. And I’d pay them accordingly. I pay the big bucks for the double E to handle the deep thinking/knowledge stuff. No that’s not the equivalent here. This is not some esoteric point of law. Its like an electrician not knowing how to install a fusebox and a bunch of EE’s coming along with differing opinions about how the electrician might best go about doing his job. Its something the electrician should know. This is basic police powers issues. Terry stops. Probable cause. Arrest. This isn’t counting angels on the point of a needle. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1294 "2014-09-23T02:19:22Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Then the standard procedures are wrong. This is something that can be easily fixed. Sure, with a lawsuit and a multi-million dollar settlement. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1295 "2014-09-23T02:20:53Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I pretty much do, if the white woman had behaved exactly as this woman had. Then you don’t know the LAPD. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1296 "2014-09-23T02:30:10Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Are you sure? He specifically said “even a low-grade misdemeanor”. > > And the rationale he used would seem to survive your reasoning. He said that “once a police officer identifies the suspect as matching a description of people involved in committing a crime”, then he has the right to inestigate and that investigation encompasses asking for ID. Does Griggs contradict this? ISTM that it’s addressing a different rationale. I think Bricker is saying the guy is wrong. After all the other stuff we have seen from guys like Hentor, wouldn’t we normally believe our own conclusions rather than rely on the authority of an “expert” unless the expert was particularly credible? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1297 "2014-09-23T02:43:40Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You can’t see penetration, but it doesn’t take much imagination to see how they could be fucking there. And, the pics are one thing, but obviously the people in the office building who observed them and called this in, as well as told them to stop THOUGHT they were fucking, and they were a lot closer. Unless someone has a full video I think the only thing we can say is that we can’t really say. So you see some pictures of two clothed people and conclude that you can’t say for certain that they aren’t having sex so you just figure its a coin flip that these two people were having public sex in front of an office building? maybe it happened, maybe it didn’t? I think the burden is on the people who are alleging that these two people were having public sex, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1298 "2014-09-23T02:45:53Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > I didn’t read that entire thread, but it would seem folks might be interested in reading this debate: > > [http://jezebel.com/django-unchained-actress-to-cops-is-it-just-because-im-1635225339/+burtreynoldsismyspiritguide1](http://jezebel.com/django-unchained-actress-to-cops-is-it-just-because-im-1635225339/+burtreynoldsismyspiritguide1) > > The young lady was not questioned for no reason, and the officer indeed had probable cause (not merely reasonable suspicion) to believe a crime had been committed based on witness complaints alone. They were identified precisely, including their vehicle. She was not detained for no reason, and was not detained unlawfully. Witnesses called to complain that sexual acts were witnessed, and not just kissing (with the door open, no less). Someone suggested they should stop putting on a show before calling the police. Evidently, this suggestion was ignored, at least for a time. > > It was a low-level issue, and the officer has indicated he’d no intention of citing or arresting anyone for sex in public. Confronting and briefly questioning puts people on notice about their behavior – it’s a disincentive to ever do again in public whatever it was they \*were \*doing. It’s never a good idea to be evasive and snotty with a co; it only makes them more suspicious. (She never did later answer a question of an interviewer about what in fact they’d been doing aside from “making out”/kissing. She deflected by in effect declaring that so long as one is clothed, there was no wrongdoing. This is incorrect.) > > It went south when the young lady (who does not in fact understand the law or basic law enforcement techniques, like many people) took issue with being questioned about her identity. To be sure, I’d take issue with an officer asking a question \*about \*me of the male in whose company I was, instead of directly to me; that is, if I _hadn’t decided to get my daddy on the phone and supposedly otherwise occupied_. She went on to say “my dad wants to talk with you” (or the like), mentioned she had a publicist (one step from “Do you know who I am?!”) … and also threw in a dying stepmother as a tactic. This, evidently, after in effect declaring the cop was being racist didn’t ruffle him. > > Apologies if this is the wrong board. I don’t know if you were merged into this thread but you can’t detain someone, even temproarily, for a completed misdemeanor that does not threaten public safety. The cops had no right to detain her so they had no right to demand ID. When they arrested her for not providing ID that she was not legally obligated to produce, they violated her rights. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1299 "2014-09-23T02:48:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A link would be nice. [Found one](http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/valley/article_0ed7b62f-f8d3-5ca2-a7f3-a2e03866263b.html?mode=jqm). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2014, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1300 "2014-09-23T02:53:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course, we now know that the police did not accuse Daniele Watts of being a prostitute. Her husband’s account says that they kept asking him if she was really his girlfriend and the cops seemed to be insinuating that she was a prostitute. THATS where the husband’s statements about prostitution come from. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=66)