# Kissing your husband while black? Not if the LAPD can help it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2014, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492 "2014-09-14T19:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1421 "2014-10-02T16:19:07Z")
Hey, **Bricker**. I got into an argument with a guy on another board about this whole thing. He claimed to be a lawyer, and brought up the idea that public lewdness is in fact a public safety issue. He seemed incredulous that I even asked him to explain how, and went into how the whole concept of obscenity and public decency was ultimately about public safety, “think of the children” style. He also tried to argue that it wasn’t a Terry stop at all due to having a specific reason for the stop, and that identification would be required because there was either reasonable suspicion or probable cause because of the phone call. I already dismissed him as a crank, since he was ultimately talking out of both sides of his mouth, but I’d like to know for sure if this stuff is bull. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1422 "2014-10-02T16:35:54Z")
What’s the difference if the police suspected that she may have been a prostitute? The only reason for the initial significance of this allegation is because the couple claimed they had been doing nothing more than PDA, from which followed the implication that the only reason for this suspicion was the race difference. But if the police got reports of sex in a car (accurate or not) then the suspicion would have been founded on non-racial grounds, and isn’t significant. IMO someone who is willing to publically either have sex in a car or simulate it has no complaint if police suspect that she might be a hooker. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1423 "2014-10-02T16:42:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Hey, **Bricker**. I got into an argument with a guy on another board about this whole thing. He claimed to be a lawyer, and brought up the idea that public lewdness is in fact a public safety issue. He seemed incredulous that I even asked him to explain how, and went into how the whole concept of obscenity and public decency was ultimately about public safety, “think of the children” style. The examples given in Grigg to explain “public safety:” > [@](#): > > We adopt the rule that a reviewing court must consider the nature of the misdemeanor offense in question, with particular attention to the potential for ongoing or repeated danger (e.g., drunken and/or reckless driving), and any risk of escalation (e.g., disorderly conduct, assault, domestic violence). I don’t see much intersection between the two types of crimes. Perhaps you might ask him to supply you with the California caselaw that classifies public lewdness as an issue of public safety. > [@](#): > > He also tried to argue that it wasn’t a Terry stop at all due to having a specific reason for the stop, and that identification would be required because there was either reasonable suspicion or probable cause because of the phone call. > > I already dismissed him as a crank, since he was ultimately talking out of both sides of his mouth, but I’d like to know for sure if this stuff is bull. What you report of his argument shows a complete misunderstanding of _Terry_. In fact, the entire definition of a Terry stop is: having a specific reason for the stop! A Terry stop rests on an officer having a reasonable, articulable suspicion of an on-going felony or public-safety misdemeanor, which exists when the officer has specific, articulable facts (as opposed to an inchoate hunch) of criminal wrongdoing. In other words, Terry stops are conditioned on reasonable suspicion. Probable cause is a higher standard. Arrests must rest upon probable cause. Here, the officers did not have probable cause, and California does not permit warrantless arrests for misdemeanors unless the officer sees the crime happening. I don’t agree the officers had probable cause here. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1424 "2014-10-02T18:25:15Z")
Well, all I can say is that if the law doesn’t forbid someone screaming abuse at a police officer, or allow the police to identify and detain someone suspected of a crime, those laws should be changed. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1425 "2014-10-02T18:27:25Z")
What if when the cops arrive they say that they think **Lucas** might have committed a felony, based on Watts’ age? If Sgt. Parker says he thinks Watts looks young, is that a reasonable suspicion? Is it enough to demand that Watts ID herself so that they can determine if Lucas is implicated? IANAL, and I read [CA Penal Code Sect. 261](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=261-269) too fast to see if my main hypothetical is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1426 "2014-10-02T18:50:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Well, all I can say is that if the law doesn’t forbid someone screaming abuse at a police officer, or allow the police to identify and detain someone suspected of a crime, those laws should be changed. OK. As it happens, I started this thread in the belief that Terry allowed stops in situations like this – i didn’t know the Grigg rule until Hentor brought it to my attention. So I’d be cautiously in favor of a return to the scheme that allows a Terry stop for any crime, felony or misdemeanor. But I also believe the law should be enforced as it exists now, rather than as we hope it would be someday. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2014, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1427 "2014-10-02T19:23:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I also believe the law should be enforced as it exists now, rather than as we hope it would be someday. Oh, I agree with that. Part of the problem seems to me that it’s so unclear whether a detention would be legal or not in any given circumstance that _lawyers_ have been disagreeing, so the police or public would have no chance. For that reason alone, the law should be clarified. I still find it surprising that screaming at anyone in public, let alone a cop, the way she did is legal. As a general rule, based on a bit of quick reading on Wiki, continuing to make loud noise after being asked to stop by a police officer would be considered as some form of public nuisance offence. If this isn’t the case in California, then fair enough I suppose. What I just fundamentally don’t understand is the American preoccupation with making it as difficult as possible for the police to do their job. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1428 "2014-10-03T04:35:56Z")
Steophan, in your opinion, what should a person who is illegally restrained be permitted to do to free himself? Shoot the criminal dead? Kick the criminal in the nuts and then run? Scream in hopes that someone comes to the rescue? Sit quietly? Should it make any difference if the criminal is an on-duty police officer? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1429 "2014-10-03T04:37:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What I just fundamentally don’t understand is the American preoccupation with making it as difficult as possible for the police to do their job. In the Watts matter, the officer was breaking the law. That’s not the sort of thing that should be made easy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1430 "2014-10-03T07:25:58Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Steophan, in your opinion, what should a person who is illegally restrained be permitted to do to free himself? Shoot the criminal dead? Kick the criminal in the nuts and then run? Scream in hopes that someone comes to the rescue? Sit quietly? > > Should it make any difference if the criminal is an on-duty police officer? In my opinion, it makes all the difference if the criminal is a police officer. We should operate under the assumption that police actions are legal, and challenge them in court, later, if we believe they’re not. There should be serious punishments for police officers who commit crimes whilst on duty - more serious than for others, who don’t have the same rights to detain and otherwise control people. But my main argument is that what happened to Danielle Watts is not something that should be illegal. If someone reports a crime, the police should be able to question, identify and, if necessary to do either of the above, detain someone who is reasonably suspected of the crime. That’s what I mean by not making it harder for the police to do their job. In answer to your first question, any or all of your suggestions should be legal. If it turns out that the detention was, in fact, legal, then the punishment for resisting it should be extremely severe, just as it should for a cop who acts illegally. In short, the police need broad powers, and need to be able to act without having to second-guess their actions based on technicalities. In response to that, the public need broad powers to challenge those actions in court if the police overstep their powers. But handcuffing someone who refuses to provide ID should not be considered an overreach. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1431 "2014-10-03T11:20:55Z")
On what basis should the law “forbid screaming abuse” at the police? It is a fundamental right to express ourselves as we wish, whether screaming or abusive. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1432 "2014-10-03T13:11:13Z")
This discussion raises an interesting tangent, one which we’ve touched upon in prior years here: > [@Should the citizenry have the right to forcibly resist an illegal arrest?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-citizenry-have-the-right-to-forcibly-resist-an-illegal-arrest/141594/1): > > Somewhat motivated by the individual gun rights thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=148475&), I’m curious to know what people feel about this topic. > > At common law, an individual had the right to resist, with physical or even deadly force, an illegal arrest. > > Today, of course, resisting an arrest with force of your own is likely to put in in the hospital, or in a standoff on some isolated farm holding. One of the reasons for gun rights was so that citizens would theoretically have the power to curb government’s tyrannical excesses; in today’s world, should the law permit a citizen to resist an illegal arrest? I posed that question twelve years ago. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1433 "2014-10-03T15:18:03Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In the Watts matter, the officer was breaking the law. That’s not the sort of thing that should be made easy. The officers, the police department, and the State Attorney office doesn’t seem to agree with you. Your case could be used to clear up this misunderstanding. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1434 "2014-10-03T15:30:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This discussion raises an interesting tangent, one which we’ve touched upon in prior years here: > > I posed that question twelve years ago. As I’ve mentioned several times in this thread, it appears to be currently the case that a detention can be legal or not based on information that is available to the cop but not the civilian. That means that telling people “if you are being detained illegally, you can resist with violence” is an AWFULLY dangerous idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1435 "2014-10-03T15:41:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > On what basis should the law “forbid screaming abuse” at the police? It is a fundamental right to express ourselves as we wish, whether screaming or abusive. Absolutely. “One of the prerogatives of American citizenship is the right to criticize public men and measures—and that means not only informed and responsible criticism but the freedom to speak foolishly and without moderation.” ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1436 "2014-10-03T16:00:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This discussion raises an interesting tangent, one which we’ve touched upon in prior years here: > > I posed that question twelve years ago. > [@doorhinge](#): > > The officers, the police department, and the State Attorney office doesn’t seem to agree with you. **Bricker** , IMO, since as this specific case illustrates, even lawyers and police can disagree whether a specific detention or arrest was legal or not, so I don’t expect (especially in a circumstance that may be emotionally or mentally stressful) folks who aren’t even in the legal or law enforcement career/community to do much better. So, while I am in favor of private gun ownership for self defence, I wouldn’t be comfortable giving everyone a “blank check” to resist (with deadly force) any arrest that the arrestee feels is unlawful or improper. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1437 "2014-10-15T16:13:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > On what basis should the law “forbid screaming abuse” at the police? It is a fundamental right to express ourselves as we wish, whether screaming or abusive. Oh,forget screaming. There was that YouTube video. Woman standing on her OWN PORCH. Videoing a police officer. He loudly stated;" I do not feel safe with you photographing me. I feel unsafe". Making that statement gave him license to arrest her. Nice. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1438 "2014-10-21T19:39:55Z")
Well now Watts is being charged with lewd conduct. > **['Django' Actress & BF -- Charged With Lewd Conduct -- For Car Sex](https://www.tmz.com/2014/10/21/django-actress-daniele-watts-charged-lewd-conduct-sex/)** > > 10:30 A.M. PT -- Danielle and her BF just issued a statement, saying ... "We are, quite frankly, appalled and disturbed that the LA prosecutors office has chosen to file these charges against us. The LAPD has previously issued a statement saying that... ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1439 "2014-10-21T19:51:41Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Well now Watts is being charged with lewd conduct. > > ['Django' Actress & BF -- Charged With Lewd Conduct -- For Car Sex](http://www.tmz.com/2014/10/21/django-actress-daniele-watts-charged-lewd-conduct-sex/) …Called it? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492/1440 "2014-10-21T19:59:21Z")
I’m pretty shocked, not that her conduct may have warranted a charge, but that they’d go through the trouble of charging her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kissing-your-husband-while-black-not-if-the-lapd-can-help-it/698492.md?page=73)