# Kitten-Crushing Maggot! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 24, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848 "2002-03-24T12:20:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/21 "2002-03-25T17:51:58Z")
Just another thought: how did someone get a pregnant cat into a cell in Sing Sing? (note - I did _not_ say “How did someone get a cat pregnant in Sing Sing”). If you can smuggle in a live animal, how easy must it be to smuggle in a gun/drugs/etc.? Regarding **andros’s** point, I don’t think people’s emotional reaction has any real logical basis, but that’s the way of emotional reactions. I guess the nearest I can get is that killing an animal for food is a ‘necessary evil’ whereas killing an animal for fun is ‘gratuitous’. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/22 "2002-03-25T18:49:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*:shrug: I’m not defending the guy by any means. > > I just find it interesting, that’s all. I find it interesting that cold, remoseless, cruel killing of unwanted pets is so much worse than cold, remorseless, cruel killing of cows for meat, simply because we “benefit” from the latter. \*\* It’s about intent. I very much doubt that a cattle rancher kills cows to get his rocks off. Nor does he choose the method of death by how much suffering he can cause. He kills cows to feed people, and does so in as humane a fashion as is reasonable for such a thing, there’s a world of difference. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/23 "2002-03-25T19:04:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I very much doubt that a cattle rancher kills cows to get his rocks off. You’re right–he does it to get paid. But to be accurate, few if any ranchers kill cows. > [@](#): > > Nor does he choose the method of death by how much suffering he can cause. :shrug: And you know that Mr. Prison Guard Fuck did so with the cats? > [@](#): > > He kills cows to feed people, and does so in as humane a fashion as is reasonable for such a thing No. Slaughterhouses kill animals in a fashion that maximizes profits while keeping protesters away. In other words, the bare minimum of “humane” they can get away with. See, being nice to the animals you’re about to gut doesn’t pay well. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/24 "2002-03-25T19:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*:shrug: I’m not defending the guy by any means. > > I just find it interesting, that’s all. I find it interesting that cold, remoseless, cruel killing of unwanted pets is so much worse than cold, remorseless, cruel killing of cows for meat, simply because we “benefit” from the latter. \*\* Interesting. You find this _interesting_. _sigh_ WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? Why are you so cold that you come into a thread which is about the abuse and murder of WANTED pets(the prisoner DID obviously want them) and turn it into a debate on slaughterhouses? Why don’t you start your own fucking thread about your little strawman and beat it, you sanctimonious donkey raping republican voting shit eater. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/25 "2002-03-25T21:12:31Z")
Yes, interesting. I find life interesting. I find your reaction interesting too, **Hastur**. (For what it’s worth, I have never raped a donkey.) Looky here: I in no way condone the guy’s actions. I find them abhorrent, and largely the reason I support the hell out of my local shelters and spay/neuter clinics. What he did was pure-D wrong. And he said as much, and he’s paying a hell of a price. But since I find his actions barely more repellent than the raising of animals for the sole purpose of killing them, or pet dumping, or any number of awful things, I cannot see how screaming for the man’s blood will serve any effect. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/26 "2002-03-26T02:44:18Z")
Where is the evidence that the guard did what he did either (a) out of desire to cause pain to the prisoner (b) out of desire to cause pain to the kittens or © out of desire to inflict the cruelest possible death on the kittens ? Time was that it was quite standard procedure, if one had an unwanted litter of kittens, one would put them in a bag and drown them. Personally, I would find being tied up in a sack and drowned to be on the same level of cruel as being relativley quickly crushed, if less gruesome for the onlookers. Does Sing Sing have an easily accessible animal shelter to which SOP instructs guards to bring contraband pets? Is there a commonly applied policy to cover this situation? ---
**Author:** ![LittleTigger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/58956e/32.png) [@LittleTigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LittleTigger)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/27 "2002-03-26T04:39:14Z")
Felitron and Electrocat will destroy those who harm kittypusses. Felitron and Electrocat have no tolerance for those kind of trash that harm cats. Click here to hear Felitron’s Message. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/28 "2002-03-26T06:02:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MaxTheVool \* > > Does Sing Sing have an easily accessible animal shelter to which SOP instructs guards to bring contraband pets? Is there a commonly applied policy to cover this situation? \*\* I would imagine that Sing Sing does have an SOP regarding contraband which would likely include some kind of accounting for any item confiscated. I REALLY doubt this would fall under those guidelines! Surely in a population as large as the one at Sing Sing, someone could have been found to take the cats. A simple ad in the staff areas? Perhaps the family of a guard or support personel? Personally, I think the guy should be staked out on a pile of tuna at the local cat shelter, but that’s probably not a Good Christian Thought! Then again, neither is he! ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Quasimodem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodem)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/29 "2002-03-26T07:37:22Z")
**Damn** , man! Quasi ---
**Author:** ![neofishboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/neofishboy/32/444_2.png) [@neofishboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neofishboy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/30 "2002-03-26T08:14:28Z")
Hello, Andros… I don’t wish to be contentious, but I was hoping that you would answer a couple of questions for me so that I can clarify your position… ``` It appears that the prevailing opinion on this board is that there is a moral distinction between the Kitten Crusher and those who would eat meat. You have stated fairly explicitly that you disagree. My questions to you are these: ``` 1. Would you support legislation that would expand the definition of criminal animal cruelty to include the consumtion of meat? If you would answer yes, that would appear to be consistant with your position and, I believe, need no further clarification. If you would answer no, I would be curious as to your reasons. ``` Conversely... ``` 1. If you take it as a given that meat eating will remain a non-criminal act, do you feel that fairness would dictate there be no punishment for the guard? (As this is The Pit, I apologise for the overly civil tone, but in my defense, this is my first post anywhere and I’m feeling very relaxed and I don’t have my plastic vampire teeth in. I promise I’ll say fuck next time.) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/31 "2002-03-26T12:33:14Z")
I am a devout cat-lover and in no way condone what this person has done. However, I am compelled to say this: **"Kitten-Crushing Maggot" = band name!** 😛 ---
**Author:** ![emmy66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/85f322/32.png) [@emmy66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmy66)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/32 "2002-03-26T12:57:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by belladonna \* > \*\*ATTN: [Kitten Killer](http://www.mycfnow.com/sh/news/stories/nat-news-aptv-131869020020322-130359.html) > Dear Sir, you are hereby informed that your right to breath the same air as the rest of the planet is currently under review. Previous panels have decided against rescinding said rights from the likes of Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and Ted Bundy; however, your society is quite capable of making up for such oversights. Karma \*\* Oh…puh-leeze. There is no comparison. If you think there is, then you are as silly as the PETA people that release mink into the wild. and the idiots that spread the rumour that deer were being equiped with orange vests. Do you really believe killing a kitten is on the same level as killing a human? Opinions like that scare me more than some idiot that kills a cat. ---
**Author:** ![belladonna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@belladonna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/belladonna)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/33 "2002-03-26T14:11:49Z")
**emmy66** –did you really read my post, or just use this opportunity to get in a shot at PETA? My point was that our society takes care of the assholes out there who rape, pillage, and murder. For those less worthy of our gas chambers and electric chairs, we just have to wait for Karma to kick in. What goes around comes around, and all that. And while I in no way believe that the death of a kitten is more important than that of a human (I work in medical research, so trust me on this), I DO believe that the line between a murderer and someone who would kill an animal _maliciously and without remorse_ is a fine one. If that opinion “scares you” than just call me the boogeyman. **neofishboy** , Welcome! A first-timer in my thread always makes me happy. And you’ve got some good questions for **andros** , ones I’d be interested to hear the answers to as well. **MaxTheVool** –I don’t think it’s the physical nature of their death that is so despicable here, although it does turn my stomach to imagine it. You ask > [@](#): > > (a) out of desire to cause pain to the prisoner… or… > > © out of desire to inflict the cruelest possible death on the kittens And my gut reaction to both of these is yes. He took a cat and her kittens from a man had been sheltering them. Maybe the prisoner liked to watch them feed from their mother and bat at each other in play. Maybe he snuck little bits of his meals into his cell to give mama, in return for her company. He hides them sucessfully for a while, knowing it’s not allowed, but all too soon here comes this guard. The guard finds them, and KNEW that they were being kept as pets by this man. Now, he could have confiscated them, put up a notice as others suggested, taken them to the shelter, etc. etc. Hell, he could have even taken them to a different compactor if he really believed they were sick, and the prisoner would have never known. But he didn’t. He intentionally killed a litter of pet\* kittens in front of their owner, in one of the more gruesome manners immediately available to him. That makes me think he’s pretty fucking sick. bella \*for those who argue that prisoners can’t have true pets, I simply ask you to remember that the prison _is_ their home, and odds are it’s hard not to treat it as such. Attachment is attachment, both out here and in there. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/34 "2002-03-26T16:04:29Z")
Hey there, **neofishboy** , good to have you here. The civil tone is appreciated, and profanity is not required in the Pit by any means. Mind you, “fuck” is one of my favorite words . . . purely for its versatility, of course. 🙂 > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neofishboy \* > \*\* It appears that the prevailing opinion on this board is that there is a moral distinction between the Kitten Crusher and those who would eat meat. You have stated fairly explicitly that you disagree. Damn, I was afraid I’d done that. Because I don’t disagree, honestly. I eat meat, I do not kill kittens, and there is a distinction. I’ll get to that in a sec. First, I’ve been unclear, somewhat inaccurate, and vague. My apologies to all, especially **Belladonna**. So I’ll begin by cutting through the bullshit as much as possible. It seems to me that many people are drawing a moral line for two reasons. Firstly because the animals were cats, and secondly because the guard received no benefit from the killing. The first is moderately comprehensible to me. I understand that kittens are cuddly and fluffy and most people like them more than, say, anacondas. It’s the second argument which I find morally questionable. It suggests that it’s acceptable to kill dogs for meat, minks for coats, and rattlesnakes for boots. Of course, there’s also the argument that the guard was deliberately cruel, that he laughed like the dickens to see the cute little kittens get smooshed, that he has a swastika carved into his forehead . . . but I still have seen no evidence to support those claims. Here’s the thing: It might well be the case that he does not hold the same views of morality involving animals as some people here. It might be that he does not feel remorse at killing the kittens. It might be that he simply would not understand why people are so upset with him. And ya know? _That doesn’t make it ok to call for his death._ Once again, the notion that “all life is precious” is relatively new, and _not_ held by all people. The idea that kittens have some inalienable right to life is _not_ a universally-held belief. It sucks. But it is simply the case. Animal cruelty laws are quite new, all things considered, and are a reflection of prevailing ethincs–_not_ the arbiter of those ethics. So, in answer to your questions. . . I believe the guard acted in a way I do not want anyone in my society to act, and therefore should be punished. _He has been_. Hopefully, he’s learned. At very least, he won’t be doing anything that dumb again–which is the point. Some of y’all might want to see the death penalty enacted for animal cruelty, but I respectfully don’t think you do. Maybe I’m wrong. But I will continue to hold the position that the deaths of those kittens was no more “cruel” than the deaths of millions of cows, calves, pigs, piglets, chickens . . . _I’m just willing to accept the cruelties of the meat industry as a price of eating meat._ That’s the distinction I draw, **neofishboy**. And goddess only knows what karma is piling up on our souls for _those_ killings, **Belladonna**. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/35 "2002-03-26T16:11:46Z")
Oh, one point I missed. **Bella** , you seem to be conflating the separate actions of 1) killing the cats in a compactor and 2) doing it in front of the prisoner. I have not been doing a good job of separating those two. The second, to me, does not fit my definition of sick or nuts or mentally deficient. I find it really fucking mean, but there are some really fucking mean people out there. Again, it sucks. But it’s the case. So, I guess I need to know if it’s either of the actions themselves that are bothering you so much, or if it’s the combination of “really fucking mean” and cruelty to the kitties. ---
**Author:** ![neofishboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/neofishboy/32/444_2.png) [@neofishboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neofishboy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/36 "2002-03-26T18:07:43Z")
I would have to agree that the death penalty for this guy does seem excessive. I would be hard-pressed to argue that the hate is totally unjustified, but calling for his death reminds me a little too much of that recent internet campaign regarding the alleged cat-killing Youth Authority guard (I assume there’s already been a thread about that?), though I guess “alleged” might be a bit strong as I understand the charges have been dropped. Anyway… I think the thing about the Kitten Crusher’s\* actions that really gets to people is the fact that they seem so utterly alien to anything you could conceive of yourself doing. With a lot of crimes, it’s like…well…I don’t see myself being stopped by the cops in a Jaguar fucked up on heroin and waggling a gun at passerby…but hell, who knows what strange little twists and turns my life might take? I can dream, can’t I? But Kitten Crushing? Nope, that’s right out. (By the way, if you want a clue about my personal views on meat consumption, check my profile…) \*I know this guy has a name, but I like the idea of him now and forever being called The Kitten Crusher…sort of like whenever I see Jason Biggs on teevee I have to yell out “Hey, isn’t that the Pie Fucker?” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/37 "2002-03-26T18:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the thing about the Kitten Crusher’s\* actions that really gets to people is the fact that they seem so utterly alien to anything you could conceive of yourself doing. I think you’re right. And yet . . . I can’t conceive of murdering another human being. But my reaction to the murders that occur every day aren’t nearly as visceral as people’s reaction to small animals being murdered. Is it the innocence factor? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/38 "2002-03-26T19:06:21Z")
To answer the question about the cat smuggling ring in some prisons. It is not necessary to do this, the overwhelming majority of prisons have a resident cat population. Prisoners are pretty disgusting at times, sometimes one wonders how they behave when they live at thier own homes. After mealtimes which are nowadays eaten in the cells rather than a dining hall (which is a great place to start a mass riot) the prisoner will often thrown any unwanted food out of their windows, despite warnings and risk of added punishments. The result is a disgraceful mess on the floor outside the accommodation units which attracts crow, pigeons, rats and other assorted pests. The discarded crap is cleaned up at least once or twice a day, by other prisoners. It also attracts cats which find an easy food source made up of the meaty rubbish thrown out and also they feed rather well on the vermin. Security built to hold humans is no problem to cats, if you remove them some more will take their place, so the best option is to have them neutered so they keep their territory thus preventing more moggies joining the party. I have taken a few of the kittens home myself, and its true as another poster mentioned that there are so many staff working in most prisons that it is generally fairly easy to find homes for them. ---
**Author:** ![neofishboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/neofishboy/32/444_2.png) [@neofishboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neofishboy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/39 "2002-03-26T19:26:26Z")
Yeah…the cute and innocent thing. Though I would agree that neither would be a useful debate point in discussing meaty vs. meatless killing (“meatless killing” is going to be my phrase of the day…yesterday was " Boo-Ya!") As to your other point… Well, I can think of situations in which I would be angry enough to kill another person…though to be fair I suppose it’s conceivable that in my blinding rage, blurred vision, and suggestible state, if someone were to convince me that it was the kittens what done me wrong…well, hell. I’m almost tempted to start a thread “What would you kill a kitten for?” but I fear that way madness lies… ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848/40 "2002-03-26T20:12:59Z")
_Angry_ enough to murder, sure. But to murder in cold blood, I can’t picture. and yet, it happens every day. :shrug: **casdave** , thanks for the info. I didn’t know cats were a problem in prisons. Although given the rat problems, I shouldn’t be surprised. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kitten-crushing-maggot/99848.md?page=3)