# KKK at West Point **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 2, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813 "2022-09-02T12:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/1 "2022-09-02T12:28:50Z")
Doesn’t seem to fit in any existing thread - > **[Ku Klux Klan plaque is mounted at the entrance of West Point's science...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ku-klux-klan-plaque-mounted-entrance-west-points-science-center-congre-rcna45653)** > > The bronze plaque at the U.S. Military Academy includes an image of a person in a hood and the words "Ku Klux Klan" below it. The plaque was dedicated in 1965 when, in theory, we were maybe starting to move beyond obvious racism? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/2 "2022-09-02T12:40:16Z")
This is mentioned in the thread on Confederate statues being taken down. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/3 "2022-09-02T12:49:55Z")
Which is here, and I think that we can move the discussion (if any) there. > [@What should we do with confederate monuments and statues?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-should-we-do-with-confederate-monuments-and-statues/793694/533): > > Commission concluded it was outside their remit, since they were to look at symbols of the CSA on defence property and KKK was post-CSA, but drew it to the attention of Congress. West Point is reviewing it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/4 "2022-09-02T12:55:25Z")
> **[Report finds decades-old plaque with image of Ku Klux Klan member at West Point](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/09/01/ku-klux-klan-plaque-west-point-military-academy-bartlett-hall/7958231001/)** > > The report includes an image of the plaque, which depicts a hooded figure holding what appears to be a rifle with the words "Ku Klux Klan" underneath. From the article. > The panels were dedicated in 1965 and created by artist Laura Gardin Fraser, who “wanted to create art that depicted ‘historical incidents or persons’ that symbolized the principal events of that time, **thereby documenting both tragedy and triumph** in our nation’s history,” according to West Point’s statement. > > [A U.S. Military Academy guide to Fraser’s work](https://usmalibrary.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16919coll13/id/4280/rec/2), which was cited in the statement, said "it should be noted that where historic personages are shown it is not intended as a memorialization of these individuals **but rather as representative figures of their times."** I don’t think the country should be trying to erase history. Take down monuments that honor traitors but don’t deny the existence of those traitors. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/5 "2022-09-02T14:05:41Z")
And my response here is the same. Put it in a museum, a place specifically for representing history. Placing something historical at the entrance of a building has traditionally been a place of honor. That’s what these sorts of plaques are: they honor the history of something. Removing said plaques does not remove the history of the building. The only history being preserved is the history of the plaque. Hence why I say the plaque can be moved. As long as the museum notes where the plaque was found, its history is intact. And as long no one tries to pretend that the KKK didn’t exist or rewrite what they did, their history is intact. Sure, the opposite is not always true. Those who wish to destroy history will often try to destroy the reminders of that history. But they also have to try and remove those ideas from the history books. And, in fact, if you change the history books, the object itself can remain, and the history still be destroyed. That’s what the slavery deniers love to do. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/6 "2022-09-02T14:23:48Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Take down monuments that honor traitors but don’t deny the existence of those traitors. Looking at the panel it does appear to be honoring the KKK, or at least placing the KKK in a position of significant individuals or organizations without any context. The artist may have had good intentions, but the execution is extremely lacking. I don’t think the panel gives the impression of simply acknowledges the existence of the KKK, and as such, it’s problematic. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/7 "2022-09-02T14:31:33Z")
Here’s a link to the guide printed by the military that thoroughly explains the background, intent and meaning of every figure on the panels. (pdf) > **[United States Military Academy Library history panels : guide / prepared by...](https://usmalibrary.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16919coll13/id/4280/rec/2)** ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/8 "2022-09-02T14:35:54Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Laura Gardin Fraser The artist [Laura Gardin Fraser](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Gardin_Fraser) died in 1966 (per Wikipedia), so this was presumably one of her last works. The article notes she did a full-size double sculpture of Lee and Stonewall Jackson in 1936. Not necessarily indicative of her beliefs (different times and you’ve got to make a living), but including the KKK on the plaque and (presumably) no other organizations (it looks like mostly named people otherwise?) is an odd artistic choice. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/9 "2022-09-02T14:38:36Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > but including the KKK on the plaque and (presumably) no other organizations The role of the KKK,as bad as it was (and is), is quite significant in the fight for equal rights. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/10 "2022-09-02T14:38:45Z")
Fair enough, the quote in the explanation reads: > Ku Klux Klan - an organization of white people who hid their criminal activity behind a mask and sheet And there are a few other negative entries represented, such as the Dred Scott decision and the Salem Witch trials. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/11 "2022-09-02T14:48:08Z")
Thanks for the link to the explanation, and I withdraw my implied criticism of Ms Fraser’s motives. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/12 "2022-09-02T15:05:25Z")
The initial story about this “KKK plaque” in the _New York Times_ left out a lot of context, making it sound like West Point had a plaque dedicated to, and celebrating, the KKK. The story has since been updated. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/13 "2022-09-02T20:41:47Z")
[Here’s a really good pic of the panel.](https://api.army.mil/e2/c/images/2012/11/20/272724/original.jpg) Cadet Dolan is unfortunately standing in front of the KKK portion, but you can see it [here](https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/oq7.HoYbXplfXs71VZrYpg--~B/Zmk9c3RyaW07aD02MjQ7cT04MDt3PTEyMDA7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://s.yimg.com/hd/cp-video-transcode/production/8db2af06-50ac-34ed-ab8c-01998906cf72/2022-09-02/00-07-41/c27003f0-a513-5820-8071-85c06dc6a939/stream_1920x1080x0_v2_3_0.jpg). The piece is definitely not pro-KKK. The vast majority of the figures depicted were abolitionists or Union military, including Abe Lincoln, John Brown, William Lloyd Garrison, Julia Ward Howe (author of Battle Hymn of the Republic, and sister to Harriet Beacher Stowe, who wrote Uncle Tom’s Cabin, which is also on the panel), Dred Scott (the person, not the legal decision), Clara Barton, John C Fremont, and Susan B. Anthony. Aside from the KKK , the only pro-slavery or pro-confederate figures are Davy Crockett, who was a slave owner, and three Confederate generals facing off with three Union generals, with a subtext of the former surrendering to the latter. Plus a “Carpet Bagger,” which isn’t exactly pro-Confederate, but represents ex-Confederate complaints about post-war treatment. Conclusion: not a racist art installation, pretty clearly a pro-Union, anti-slavery piece that included the KKK as historically important during the era the piece depicts. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/14 "2022-09-02T21:02:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > …Clara Barton… I remember her. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ug75diEyiA0/hqdefault.jpg "Where's the Beef?") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug75diEyiA0&t=9) ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kkk-at-west-point/970813/15 "2022-09-02T21:12:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Conclusion: not a racist art installation, pretty clearly a pro-Union, anti-slavery piece that included the KKK as historically important during the era the piece depicts. I think I get another punch for my “Woke Leftist” card for jumping to the conclusion of racism before all the facts are known (in my defense, ‘if it could be racist, it probably is racist’ for things that are around my age old is not a bad default).