# Knee Defender - Yea or Nea? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584 "2014-08-26T20:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/181 "2014-08-30T10:09:27Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > Boeing already has a sort of solution which I suspect is going to become an industry standard. > > Basically, the seatback will recline slightly (if at all), but the seat cushion will slide forward. > > This means when you “recline” you are moving closer to the seat in front of you, sacrificing your legroom and maintaining the space behind you. This seems like the perfect solution to me. It assigns the downside to the person getting the benefit. You need to recline? Fine. You lose some leg room, not the guy behind you. I hope this becomes the standard. It will be interesting if people’s senses of entitlement are so developed that we see reactions like, “But then I’d be uncomfortable and it defeats the whole point of reclining!” when that was a complete non-issue when the discomfort was the guy’s in back of him. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/182 "2014-08-30T10:26:32Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > This seems like the perfect solution to me. It assigns the downside to the person getting the benefit. You need to recline? Fine. You lose some leg room, not the guy behind you. I hope this becomes the standard. It will be interesting if people’s senses of entitlement are so developed that we see reactions like, “But then I’d be uncomfortable and it defeats the whole point of reclining!” when that was a complete non-issue when the discomfort was the guy’s in back of him. This system sounds fine to me. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/183 "2014-08-30T12:33:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > This seems like the perfect solution to me. It assigns the downside to the person getting the benefit. You need to recline? Fine. You lose some leg room, not the guy behind you. I hope this becomes the standard. It will be interesting if people’s senses of entitlement are so developed that we see reactions like, “But then I’d be uncomfortable and it defeats the whole point of reclining!” when that was a complete non-issue when the discomfort was the guy’s in back of him. I think you misread the posts of the people who objected to the Knee Defender, if you think that would be our reaction. The seats you show above seem like a great solution. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/184 "2014-08-30T13:03:23Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > Boeing already has a sort of solution which I suspect is going to become an industry standard. > > Basically, the seatback will recline slightly (if at all), but the seat cushion will slide forward. This is the way the seats on the trains in Germany work. I think only first class though. And as I recall, the price between First Class and Coach wasn’t much. Or at least it wasn’t absurd the way airlines are. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/185 "2014-08-30T13:03:57Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I think you misread the posts of the people who objected to the Knee Defender, if you think that would be our reaction. The seats you show above seem like a great solution. I agree, obviously. And if that’s the consensus, great–I wasn’t predicting any specific reaction, just wondering, based on what I perceived as the strong entitled, “too bad for the other guy” sentiment expressed. We’ll see, I guess. Again, though, this seems perfect, and if everyone (more or less) is happy with it, all the better. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/186 "2014-08-30T13:43:57Z")
> **[This New Plane Seat Looks Horrifying. It’s Also a Great Idea.](https://slate.com/business/2014/07/airbus-plane-seat-patent-application-these-horrifying-seats-are-a-good-idea-for-tall-passengers.html)** > > At first glance, it would seem that Airbus is busy conjuring new ways to torment coach-class airline passengers. The aircraft manufacturer recently... Could they really implement a design that doesn’t have neck support? - I’ll recline slightly during a redeye, but otherwise can tolerate staying upright, except in two situations: 1) if the person in front of me reclines all the way, I have no choice but to recline my seat or I won’t have enough room to even read a book. 2) the seat has a built-in padded headrest. These were built for an average consumer height of 5’10". If you’re 5’5", like me, instead of resting comfortably at the base of my skull, it hits me in the middle of my skull, which forces my head forward. I cannot sit for a long period of time in that position, so I have to recline. Personally, I think that they should make the seats as bare as possible, maximizing space on all sides, and then allow inventors to come up with ways to allow consumers to personalize their space to make it more comfortable, on their own dime and time, without impeding on their neighbors. BTW, I wonder what happened to Delta’s cozy seats? It was supposed to have been rolled out several years ago, but I’ve never seen it in action. > **[Delta "Cozy Suite" Seats Make Economy Class Semi-Tolerable](https://gizmodo.com/delta-cozy-suite-seats-make-economy-class-semi-tolera-382292)** > > It may not be as fancy as first class accommodations, but Delta's new "Cozy Suite" seats promise to make economy class seating less of a hellish, crippling nightmare. The major feature of the design is a staggered layout that increases privacy while... ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/187 "2014-08-30T13:49:55Z")
The same thing that happens to every airline’s plan to spread seats out, something that they try only during economic downturns when ticket sales are down - the economy recovered and they were able to sell that space once again, and it was worth the fuel cost of carrying those seats once again. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/188 "2014-08-30T16:12:49Z")
I think there are couple of things that need to be pointed out here. Firstly seats recline, in large part, because for the majority even a slight recline promotes sleep. On long haul flights the airline is entirely all about getting most of the passengers to sleep for several hours. Non reclining seats mean most passengers will not sleep. I can’t believe the airlines are going to go that way. Imagine for a moment an 18hr flight where no one sleeps, it’d be a nightmare for everyone involved, I believe. (And if you’re complaining over a 8-10hr flight either spring for first class or suck it up!) Secondly, and most importantly, adjusting seats to accommodate above average height patrons makes about as much sense as lowering overhead compartments for shorter people. (I never put anything in the overhead bin, because I cannot reach it in part, but also because fetching something from above, you cannot reach, sometimes ends by having things fall on your head, heavy things. Not being able to see into the bin doesn’t exactly help, and well meaning others are often as inept as I when dealing with unfamiliar bags!) It’s an inconvenient world unless you ARE the average, in many ways and everyone has a cross to bear. Deal with it! ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/189 "2014-08-30T16:42:21Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It’s an inconvenient world unless you ARE the average, in many ways and everyone has a cross to bear. Deal with it! Why do I have to, now that Bouncer showed there’s a solution? Why shouldn’t you be the one with reduced leg room if you want to recline? Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/190 "2014-08-30T17:24:08Z")
I do deal with it. All the time. Been doing so for a lifetime, with a smile on my face. That’s why I’M not whining for industry wide change to accommodate my personal needs. Because that would be silly, now wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/191 "2014-08-30T18:01:29Z")
The last time I flew on United, I had to shove my bum into the seat (as did the skinny college kid across from me). And I did not have room to cross my legs. I’m 5’9" tall. Whenever possible, I fly Jet Blue and upgrade to the exit row seat. The ridiculousness of seating on airlines is one of the main reasons that I refuse any job that requires travel on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/192 "2014-08-30T22:03:33Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I do deal with it. All the time. Been doing so for a lifetime, with a smile on my face. > > That’s why I’M not whining for industry wide change to accommodate my personal needs. Because that would be silly, now wouldn’t it? Whining? Nonsense. Mine is righteous anger, taking the form of brilliant protest. I wouldn’t be surprised if the airlines are following my posts in this very thread. And 10 years from now, when the change is firmly in place, I win and you have to deal with it. Yay! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/193 "2014-08-31T00:16:25Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The arrogance and lack of basic manners displayed in threads like this astounds me (well, no it doesn’t anymore but I wish it did). It astounds me too. It’s like you’re asking the guy in front of you to be uncomfortable because you don’t like having your knees touched. You arrogantly think your knee space is more important than my seat comfort. I don’t know why you think I’ll sit in a torturous up-and-down position for three hours just so you don’t have to have a cushion touch your legs, but it ain’t happenin’. These claims of knee agony are complete bullshit, btw. Turn your legs or spread your legs. Problem solved. I’m not deplaning with a sore back because you have an arrogant and selfish interpretation of personal space. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/194 "2014-08-31T03:00:15Z")
Part of the problem ISTM is, you see that tray table and the general design of its mount upon the seats? It’s not, was never designed as, a laptop workstation (\*). The slide-scoot seats described in recent posts (which some airlines are already implementing, I experienced one not long ago) look like a good answer to the issue of recline in short-pitched cabin layouts. (\* Or for lying down your head but I say that if you shove your seat back[\*\*] and suddenly there’s _ **“OOWWW!!!AAAGHHH!!OOOWWOWW!!!”** _ from behind, you should pull back forward and look to see what’s wrong) [\*\* And really you should not shove back with a sudden whomp as if you just got punched in the face by Floyd Mayweather. \*Ease \*back. Better for the equipment.] The flying public long ago made it perfectly clear that what they want is a $89 transcon, not comfort. You cannot argue with that. _ **But** _ by that same token hyperbolic statements about willingness to get stacked like cordwood for the sake of cheap fares are superfluous, the bastihds at corporate HQ do not need the encouragement to keep making the experience more miserable. Right now, JetBlue in their A320s is among the _ **roomiest** _ US domestic coach sections(34 inches) (and they give you one free checked bag). Opposite, Spirit, has 28 inch pitch non-reclining seats in their own A320s, and they charge an extra fee for every damned thing) for 28 more total seats per flight(!!) if seatguru is to be believed. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Here’s my attempt. Random flight from LAX to Honolulu, starting on a random date (I picked Sep 23 - Sep 27). Here’s the page it gave me: [Page](http://www.seatguru.com/flights?airport0=LAX&airport1=HNL&from=&to=&date=&nonstop=false&cos=0&fcf_from=Los+Angeles%2C+CA+-+Los+Angeles+International+Airport+%28LAX%29&fcf_to=Honolulu%2C+HI+-+Honolulu+International+Airport+%28HNL%29&departing=09%2F23%2F2014&returning=09%2F27%2F2014&travelers=1) > > Other than a tiny little blurb about leg room on the side of each flight, it gives me no additional information. What’s average? If I didn’t read this topic, I would have no idea that apparently US airlines consider 31-35 inches to be the norm. Is that width? Space from the front of the seat to the back of the seat in front? I click on Details and it goes into slightly more detail, but it mentions seat pitch. I don’t know what that is, even if I did read Sam Lowry’s post right above mine. And his explanation is confusion, “one mounting bolt to the same point”? What’s a mounting bolt? > > And even if I did know about that, I clicked on the first 5 options on that page. I noticed that every single ticket was for a 31 inch seat pitch. There’s literally nowhere I can go if I’m looking for something bigger. Where are my choices that I’m being promised? . 31 inches is not really “Average Legroom” it’s just the _most common_ pitch used by US domestic carriers. More simply, it means 31 inches between one fixed part of the seat and the same fixed part of the next seat directly behind. This varies by airline, airplane, and interiors-shop options package. Not all Airbuses, not all Boeings, not all Embraers or Bombardiers, not all 320s or 737-700s or E190s or CJ900s, and not all those flying for Spirit or Southwest or USAir or United Express give you the same. If you go to \*this \*seatguru page: [Find Seat Maps](http://www.seatguru.com/findseatmap/findseatmap.php) you can look at the expected configuration _of a specific flight_. Obviously the idea is to look up the available flights on whatever’s your ticket-shopping site/app, then open this page in another window to check \*specifc \*flights before buying. Not to search “generally” for “what’s available to Honolulu”. However in most US cities that are not major gateways served by a half dozen major airlines, there is little diversity of offer in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/195 "2014-08-31T03:53:41Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > It astounds me too. It’s like you’re asking the guy in front of you to be uncomfortable because you don’t like having your knees touched. You arrogantly think your knee space is more important than my seat comfort. I don’t know why you think I’ll sit in a torturous up-and-down position for three hours just so you don’t have to have a cushion touch your legs, but it ain’t happenin’. > > These claims of knee agony are complete bullshit, btw. Turn your legs or spread your legs. Problem solved. I’m not deplaning with a sore back because you have an arrogant and selfish interpretation of personal space. You have no idea what you are talking about. There is no leg spreading or turning in some situations (in other ones there are but you may not have control over them). The space is simply too small to allow that if you are too tall for the space the seats were designed for. I need you to shut up for a second and go through the simulation that I described above. The claims of knee agony are absolutely not bullshit in your terms. The way you get hit as a tall person are incredibly painful as other people can attest to because of the way that the airplane seats are configured. There is nothing else remotely like it allowed in the consumer world. If you really think what I am claiming is bullshit, sit in a small place and get someone (even a child) to hit you repeatedly in the knee area with slow but deliberate force well being forced to keep your legs at the same angle on the floor. A plate turned on edge is a good way to simulate the angles of some seats. I can also come up with a way to simulate to simulate slower compaction but it will require a more formal setup. This is the SDMB. Put up or shut-up. We have a collective brainpower much better than MythBusters. I and many others know what I we am referring to and I am not being dishonest about it in the least. It is easily testable. Try it yourself and be honest about it in the name of science. Your turn! ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/196 "2014-08-31T04:21:11Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > These claims of knee agony are complete bullshit, btw. Turn your legs or spread your legs. Problem solved. I’m not deplaning with a sore back because you have an arrogant and selfish interpretation of personal space. I am also a very polite person in general but can be very aggressive when dealing with uncouth behavior like you advocate here. In most of those cases, my knees will already be at the back of your seat just because I try to keep them away from my rowmates and out of the aisle. You seat isn’t coming back because I can block it just by holding my position. There isn’t any malice involved. I am just not moving my legs so that you can lean back and there is no reasonable amount of force that can make it happen. What are you going to do about that big boy? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/197 "2014-08-31T08:36:57Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am also a very polite person in general but can be very aggressive when dealing with uncouth behavior like you advocate here. In most of those cases, my knees will already be at the back of your seat just because I try to keep them away from my rowmates and out of the aisle. You seat isn’t coming back because I can block it just by holding my position. There isn’t any malice involved. I am just not moving my legs so that you can lean back and there is no reasonable amount of force that can make it happen. > > What are you going to do about that big boy? Probably sigh loudly and think passive aggressive thoughts. I am almost always flying super long hauls (18+ hours) where I am massively jetlagged, and denying me the ability to sleep is pretty fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/198 "2014-08-31T12:31:08Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > This is the SDMB. Put up or shut-up. Good point. I tried to find some statistics on knee or leg injuries sustained in airlines, and can’t come up with anything. Plenty of statistics on turbulence, but nothing on knees being injured by reclining seats. I’m open to the possibility that people can sustain injuries by seats. But I’m leaning toward concluding that most of the claims either reflect some preexisting knee condition that is aggravated by small spaces or sitting still, or even just hyperbolic statements that confuse injury with discomfort - I am about an inch and a half shorter than you, and I’ve never experienced or seen someone’s knees get “crushed.” As I use that word, that person would have to be removed from the airplane by ambulance. Since this is the SDMB, we know that data is not the plural of anecdote. Do you have some factual evidence to show that serious knee injury is being caused by seats being redlined by about 7 degrees? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/199 "2014-08-31T12:49:25Z")
Airline seats don’t recline. They move forward temporarily for takeoff and landing. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/200 "2014-08-31T14:22:53Z")
A relevant article -[‘Legroom war’ rages as planes grow more cramped](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/legroom-war-rages-planes-grow-more-cramped-213826465.html#6mi5iso) According to that article, “Within just a few days, two aircraft were re-routed because of passengers fighting over a seat recline.” The article also mentions the Knee Defender. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=11)