# Knee Defender - Yea or Nea? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584 "2014-08-26T20:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/201 "2014-08-31T15:22:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Probably sigh loudly and think passive aggressive thoughts. I am almost always flying super long hauls (18+ hours) where I am massively jetlagged, and denying me the ability to sleep is pretty fucked up. But you would deny others comfort so you can sleep since you are jetlagged. That’s pretty fucked up too. It’s getting silly. NO one can get out of their seat unless everyone in the row gets up (unless you’re in the aisle of course) Gah. Had a long post eaten. Long and the short of it - To convert an A320 from 168 seats to 138 seats would give everyone 6 more inches of legroom. This would raise a per seat ticket from $148 to $181. IMHO, that’s minutia. A very small price to pay for comfort/ability to sleep. Less than a tank of gas. The flight would be much more comfortable and safer with 30 fewer people aboard. Easier to board and deplane as well. Of course there are a thousand other variables. I’ll vote with my $. And do. Some airlines offer stretch seating, just not enough of it IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/202 "2014-08-31T15:30:53Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > A relevant article -[‘Legroom war’ rages as planes grow more cramped](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/legroom-war-rages-planes-grow-more-cramped-213826465.html#6mi5iso) > > According to that article, “Within just a few days, two aircraft were re-routed because of passengers fighting over a seat recline.” > > The article also mentions the Knee Defender. I’m sure such re-routes effect the airlines bottom line (and hundreds of pissed off customers). I don’t defend the Knee Defender, but people are taking notice. Some are going over the edge and I’m sure the airline accountants and lawyers will be looking at it. Well, not sure. Just hope. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/203 "2014-08-31T17:17:21Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > But you would deny others comfort so you can sleep since you are jetlagged. That’s pretty fucked up too. > > It’s getting silly. NO one can get out of their seat unless everyone in the row gets up (unless you’re in the aisle of course) > > Gah. Had a long post eaten. Long and the short of it - To convert an A320 from 168 seats to 138 seats would give everyone 6 more inches of legroom. This would raise a per seat ticket from $148 to $181. > > IMHO, that’s minutia. A very small price to pay for comfort/ability to sleep. Less than a tank of gas. The flight would be much more comfortable and safer with 30 fewer people aboard. Easier to board and deplane as well. > > Of course there are a thousand other variables. I’ll vote with my $. And do. Some airlines offer stretch seating, just not enough of it IMHO. The difference is that my sleeping involves using normal airplane seat functionality. Your knee space involves impeding normal airplane seat functionality. It’s not really comparable. Please do vote with your dollars. But I rarely take $148 flights-- more often it’s $1,480 and I’m buying tickets for three people, and I definitely will notice dropping an extra $960 to subsidize someone else’s knee space when the family visits home for Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/204 "2014-08-31T21:33:04Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > The difference is that my sleeping involves using normal airplane seat functionality. Your knee space involves impeding normal airplane seat functionality. It’s not really comparable. > > Please do vote with your dollars. But I rarely take $148 flights-- more often it’s $1,480 and I’m buying tickets for three people, and I definitely will notice dropping an extra $960 to subsidize someone else’s knee space when the family visits home for Christmas. Got it. Not your problem. I and many others believe that this normal seat functionality can be harmful, or at the very least discomforting to those that also paid for a seat. I don’t put my seat back when I can see that it will be a problem for someone behind me. It’s just common courtesy. It’s your seat. I get that. You paid for it, and should be able to do whatever wish. Really, that’s OK. But I am a bit surprised at the callousness of some the opinions expressed here. I suspect that many don’t understand how difficult it can be to fly when you are over what the airlines consider average height (what every the heck that is. Must be pretty short). Since people cannot seem to be considerate of others, I think the airlines should do a better job of addressing this. It’s clearly becoming an issue. As I’ve said a number of times, I’m willing to pay a reasonable fee for added leg room. It’s still hard to find. No, I’m not going to pay $2000 for it. That’s simply absurd and out of reach for many people. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/205 "2014-08-31T23:21:10Z")
$1,480.00 is not the normal cost of economy class, ( cattle class ) on the average flight. It is more of the first class type and they do get leg room so they can use all the bells & whistles. If I had attitude sitting in front of me or the wife in the cheap seats, that poor traveler would be so nuts, frustrated, uncomfortable, of being goaded into making such an ass of himself that he would be arrested on arrival. Do not make an ass of yourself to me or mine while trapped in a small metal tube that you can got out of and run away. _Some days some people just need to be read to out of the book._ ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/206 "2014-09-01T00:35:36Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > $1,480.00 is not the normal cost of economy class, ( cattle class ) on the average flight. It is more of the first class type and they do get leg room so they can use all the bells & whistles. > > If I had attitude sitting in front of me or the wife in the cheap seats, that poor traveler would be so nuts, frustrated, uncomfortable, of being goaded into making such an ass of himself that he would be arrested on arrival. > > Do not make an ass of yourself to me or mine while trapped in a small metal tube that you can got out of and run away. > > _Some days some people just need to be read to out of the book._ Use your imagination. If your family is on the other side of the world for you, $1,480 may indeed be a normal cost of an economy class ticket (well, more like $1,200.) You can’t assume that your cheap short hop is the same thing for everyone. For some chunk of the plane it may be the first of five legs on a long, miserable, expensive journey. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/207 "2014-09-01T05:14:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Use your imagination. If your family is on the other side of the world for you, $1,480 may indeed be a normal cost of an economy class ticket (well, more like $1,200.) You can’t assume that your cheap short hop is the same thing for everyone. For some chunk of the plane it may be the first of five legs on a long, miserable, expensive journey. Yeah, I agree. That case is really at a way far end of the spectrum IMO. If I am behind you for just 4 hours of that trip and you think you will just slam & cause pain to me & mine, well, like I said up thread… I stood up for 33 hours with 2 breaks of about 30 minutes each. I did not have to pay for the trip but I had to endure it. It did not cause me to be an asshat towards my fellow passengers. I don’t travel that way much anymore except to funerals because I am old now so we won’t have to have a measuring contest. Sucks to have family ½ way round the world. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/208 "2014-09-01T06:12:40Z")
What I’m hearing is a business opportunity for airlines. People of 6 ft height are not rare nor should anybody be expected to sit through a 12 hr flight without some level of comfort. I would think there’s a business model for paying more money to gain back what passengers had 20 years ago. It doesn’t make sense to charge an outlandish fee for business class and next to nothing for cattle seats. The difference in space isn’t in relation to the cost difference. I also think there is room for improvement in seat designs. I’ve sat in many molded chairs that did a better job than 8 inches of foam. Insert the ole “if we can land a man on the moon” meme here. build a slimmer seat that provides additional space and you can add back some of the space lost. Just doing some quick math a 767-400 series, it has 175 economy seats at 32". take out 4 rows and that’s 28 seats which makes it 147 seat capacity at 38" business class. That’s a 19% loss of revenue. I’d pay 20% more to travel in comfort. I would think there are enough people out there willing to pay that difference that a carrier could offer the upgrade. People can recline their seats without killing the person behind them. Less work for the crews for the same money. Everybody’s happy. ---
**Author:** ![kbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4491bb/32.png) [@kbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kbear)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/209 "2014-09-01T10:11:04Z")
My 6’5"husband can be pretty rude when the person in front of him tries to recline their seat. While I think the airlines need to recognise that being over 6 feet tall is pretty common and should offer more seats with leg room, I’ve asked hubby to just pay for the extra legroom seats instead of being aggravated all the time. Truthfully, if the airline would just put foot rests back in economy to take the strain off my lower back, that would probably make me comfortable enough to not need to recline the seat at all. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/210 "2014-09-01T12:48:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Just doing some quick math a 767-400 series, it has 175 economy seats at 32". take out 4 rows and that’s 28 seats which makes it 147 seat capacity at 38" business class. That’s a 19% loss of revenue. I’d pay 20% more to travel in comfort. I would think there are enough people out there willing to pay that difference that a carrier could offer the upgrade. People can recline their seats without killing the person behind them. Less work for the crews for the same money. Everybody’s happy. I glad to see that you are coming up with similar numbers that I did. Perhaps ‘upgrade’ a third of economy to seats with a bit more leg room. And maybe not even 6" perhaps 4" would be enough. It makes an incredible difference for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/211 "2014-09-01T13:13:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What I’m hearing is a business opportunity for airlines. People of 6 ft height are not rare. They are not, but what is rare are people so tall that they can’t stick their feet under the seat in front of them in order to lower their knees below the inclining part of the seat. They may be too fat to do so, but rarely too tall. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/212 "2014-09-01T13:41:51Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > They are not, but what is rare are people so tall that they can’t stick their feet under the seat in front of them in order to lower their knees below the inclining part of the seat. They may be too fat to do so, but rarely too tall. Yeah, I suspect some of the “too tall to fly” people are exaggerating a bit considering that the guy in question who started this whole thing was actually sitting in economy plus. His knees were not being crushed, he was just pretending that they were. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/213 "2014-09-01T13:43:37Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > They are not, but what is rare are people so tall that they can’t stick their feet under the seat in front of them in order to lower their knees below the inclining part of the seat. They may be too fat to do so, but rarely too tall. Glad you brought this up. I’m 6’4", not overweight (well, maybe 10 lbs. I weigh 215 lbs) and it can be tough to put my size 13 feet under the seat in front. The angle doesn’t work. I can make it work, but not comfortably. My shins still hit the bottom of the seat in front of me. Why would being ‘to fat’ (your words) have anything to do with this? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/214 "2014-09-01T13:46:40Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Yeah, I suspect some of the “too tall to fly” people are exaggerating a bit considering that the guy in question who started this whole thing was actually sitting in economy plus. His knees were not being crushed, he was just pretending that they were. I agree. I suspect he was just being an ass. That doesn’t mean that this can’t be a problem though. I glad it’s being brought to light. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/215 "2014-09-01T13:59:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’d pay 20% more to travel in comfort. I would think there are enough people out there willing to pay that difference that a carrier could offer the upgrade. People can recline their seats without killing the person behind them. Less work for the crews for the same money. Everybody’s happy. The problem here is that if one major airline does this, and the other majors don’t, the vast majority of people who can deal with a 32" pitch are going to go for the fare that’s 20% lower. > [@enipla](#): > > Perhaps ‘upgrade’ a third of economy to seats with a bit more leg room. And maybe not even 6" perhaps 4" would be enough. It makes an incredible difference for me. I think all of the majors now offer premium economy in about a quarter to a third of their cabins on non-regional jets. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/216 "2014-09-01T15:34:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The problem here is that if one major airline does this, and the other majors don’t, the vast majority of people who can deal with a 32" pitch are going to go for the fare that’s 20% lower. If that’s true then one of two other things must be true: most people drive cramped economy cars or only economy minded people fly. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I think all of the majors now offer premium economy in about a quarter to a third of their cabins on non-regional jets. yes, the business class. And they’re usually very expensive. The seats are also wider. 1 seat is removed diagonally so they’re 6 across instead of 7. So instead of 20% more cost it would be an additional 16% on top of that (not sure of the math on that, Ill check it later). I would think with all the bitching about knees that a large enough group of people would prefer the additional length over the width advantages of business class. The plane would break down into 1st class, business wide class, normal class with narrow seat but business class leg room. ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/217 "2014-09-01T17:38:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would think with all the bitching about knees that a large enough group of people would prefer the additional length over the width advantages of business class. The plane would break down into **1st class** , business wide class, normal class with narrow seat but business class leg room. Twice I read the bolded as **fat class**. Must be these Dollar Store reading glasses… ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/218 "2014-09-01T18:17:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes, the business class. And they’re usually very expensive. I think **Ravenman** is referring to Premium Economy, not “Business Class”. Called Even More Space by [JetBlue](http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/JetBlue_Airways/Jetblue_Airways_Airbus_A321_transcon.php), Economy Plus by [United](http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/United_Airlines/United_Airlines_Boeing_767-300_B.php), Confort Economy by [Delta](http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Delta_Airlines/Delta_Airlines_Airbus_A320.php), etc. It is what you described, the same 17.5-inch-wide coach seat but with 2 to 4 extra inches of forward pitch. The extra cost tends to work on a sliding scale by length of flight and rate of the base ticket, so it can quickly add up. On a SJU-FLL, SJU-ATL or SJU-CLT flight, for instance, even at $35 extra bucks it’s not worth it for me, I can take 3.5 hours at regular pitch. On a transoceanic, comfort econ was too expensive for me vis-a-vis real improvement in comfort, it was a better deal to just get an aisle seat so I could easily stretch out periodically. Transcon across the USA, OTOH, I can see going for it if on one of the more cramped airlines and my base ticket was cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/219 "2014-09-01T19:07:56Z")
Really, judging by the ‘_Deal With It_’ capitalist running dogs here, it might be worth airlines introducing Standing Only flights, and charging extra for seats. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/220 "2014-09-01T19:38:31Z")
Frothy rhetoric won’t change that MOST design IS centred on averages! Whether you are over tall or under, and the miseries thereby caused, doesn’t change the facts that manufacturers, airlines, etc, etc, will ALWAYS be designing for the that huge majority, comprised of a few metrics either side of exactly average. Much like being hyper sensitive to scent, or sound, it’s a cruel, cruel world indeed. But expecting the rest of the world to accommodate your individual needs so stridently seems destined to bring you crushing disappointment. There already is an option. Fly first class. Take a train, bus, car, boat, etc. But if you choose to fly in a plane with reclining seats you don’t get to demand the person in front accommodate your needs, in my opinion. You knew you were sitting behind a reclining seat when you purchased your ticket. And that person paid to comfortably recline. I have empathy for your discomfort, but not the first world attitude, I’m afraid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=12)