# Knee Defender - Yea or Nea? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584 "2014-08-26T20:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/61 "2014-08-27T15:41:17Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Why does \*your \*comfort trump the person in front? Oh, because you are only thinking of _you_. So then why are you upset when the other person is doing the same thing? You missed the point. \*\*Jophiel \*\*is just responding in kind to entitled posters like Cyros in posts 9 and specifically post 16, as a way of pointing out the rudeness of their position (that position being “fully reclined”, apparently). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/62 "2014-08-27T15:45:16Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Why does \*your \*comfort trump the person in front? Oh, because you are only thinking of _you_. So then why are you upset when the other person is doing the same thing? Exactly. Just as there’s zero reason for me to be upset about you reclining because “I get to I paid for it!”, there’s zero reason for you to be upset about me kicking my Skymall catalog that I paid for. Now we’re both equally happy. Good thing we handled it like adults and not like entitled little children, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/63 "2014-08-27T15:47:32Z")
I’m pretty sure only a child could draw an equivalency between kicking a seat and reclining one. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/64 "2014-08-27T15:52:59Z")
The airline should decide to what extent airline seats should recline. Individual passengers shouldn’t make this decision for other individual passengers. The obvious problem with the use of Knee Defender is that if the person in back of you uses it to prevent you from reclining, and the person in front of you reclines their seat as much as they can, you’re squeezed in between without any options. That’s why Knee Defender shouldn’t be allowed: everybody shouldn’t have to bring their own Knee Defender just in case they find themselves in such a situation. Given typical seat pitches in coach, my feeling is that reclining simply shouldn’t be an option (except perhaps during designated ‘nap times,’ if you will, on especially long flights or late-night flights), because you’ve got barely enough space in front of you even if the passenger sitting in front of you _doesn’t_ recline. It strikes me as bizarre that this fight didn’t erupt in coach, but [in United’s Economy Plus section, which has four more inches of legroom than coach](http://www.wtop.com/681/3688612/Cops-called-after-fliers-fight-over-seat-recline). (See last paragraph at the link.) What _should_ have happened in that instance, IMHO, is that once the passenger using Knee Defender refused the flight attendant’s request that he remove it, the flight attendant should have told both passengers that s/he was going to discuss this with the pilot, and the pilot’s instruction should have been that either the passenger using Knee Defender would comply and cease its use, or the plane would make an unscheduled landing at the nearest possible airport to remove that passenger. While the woman in front shouldn’t have taken matters into her own hands, she also shouldn’t have been left with the impression that the flight crew had exhausted their options and weren’t going to make the guy remove the Knee Defender. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/65 "2014-08-27T15:56:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m pretty sure only a child could draw an equivalency between kicking a seat and reclining one. Both make the journey unnecessarily unpleasant for another passenger; simple courtesy suggests you do neither. I will be 9 in October. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/66 "2014-08-27T15:59:23Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I will be 9 in October. 😃 Well played. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/67 "2014-08-27T16:03:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m pretty sure only a child could draw an equivalency between kicking a seat and reclining one. While the posts were somewhat exaggerated, you’re looking at it wrong. In reality, someone reclining their seat fully is putting the seat back directly on my knees. I cannot move my legs _at all_ without jostling their seat. There is NO room. Am I to keep perfectly still for the duration of the flight, just so I am not rude to the person in front? I’ve already got my shoulders pulled in so the passengers on either side can actually use their entire chair width. So the seat in front of me is going to be “kicked” (kneed), probably repeatedly. If you think I am doing it because I am childish, I think that’s more on you than me. I’m just trying to keep my legs from cramping, or getting clots. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/68 "2014-08-27T16:05:00Z")
That’s different. **Jophiel** is talking about kicking the seat back (or the Skymall catalog) on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/69 "2014-08-27T16:17:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s different. **Jophiel** is talking about kicking the seat back (or the Skymall catalog) on purpose. Really, I’m talking about the “It’s my seat so tough shit, I’ll do whatever _I_ want and you can go fly another airline” mentality. If you don’t care about the other person’s comfort because it’s “your seat” then you have no room to complain if they disrupt your comfort on the same basis. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/70 "2014-08-27T16:21:54Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Am I to keep perfectly still for the duration of the flight, just so I am not rude to the person in front? I’ve already got my shoulders pulled in so the passengers on either side can actually use their entire chair width. > > So the seat in front of me is going to be “kicked” (kneed), probably repeatedly. If you think I am doing it because I am childish, I think that’s more on you than me. I’m just trying to keep my legs from cramping, or getting clots. Before you resort to kicking the seat in front of you, would you first try to speak to the person doing the reclining? Or do you go straight to the annoying behavior with no explanation? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/71 "2014-08-27T16:28:25Z")
Look, everyone on the plane has the right to the same amount of space. Since seats do, in fact, recline, that space includes the recline. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/72 "2014-08-27T16:42:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [This story.](http://www.wtop.com/1390/3689041/Anti-recline-device-sparks-debate) It would kill you to explain or even cut & paste a paragraph? If you cant be arsed to do that, why should I? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/73 "2014-08-27T16:46:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Before you resort to kicking the seat in front of you, would you first try to speak to the person doing the reclining? Or do you go straight to the annoying behavior with no explanation? I would ask first, of course, because I am polite and civilized, and know the world doesn’t revolve around me. But if it was some entitled jerk, such as some posters in this thread, or the woman on the plane that started this OP, they probably wouldn’t unrecline, and then we’d have to see what level of escalation was necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/74 "2014-08-27T16:51:18Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Look, everyone on the plane has the right to the same amount of space. Since seats do, in fact, recline, that space includes the recline. Having “the right” to do something and it being proper, polite or courteous are different things. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/75 "2014-08-27T17:06:59Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Seriously, for me, every time someone reclines their seat, they are saying “@#$% the guy behind me, I could not care less,” since the guy in back of you will necessarily be unfavorably impacted–some people a little, some people a lot. Honestly, for a very long time I had no idea that reclining my seat would have a negative impact on the passenger behind me. People in front of me recline all the time and it never impacted me, so why would I think reclining would impact the person behind me? I think back to the days when I was a kid; I LOVED reclining the seat. That must have really pissed off the people behind me since I clearly didn’t need that space (I’m small, and when I was a kid I was super tiny). Anyway, my point is for a very long time I had no clue that reclining the seat was an issue. No one has ever asked me to not recline my seat. So how am I to know that I’m not supposed to recline my seat? ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/76 "2014-08-27T17:09:25Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > You missed the point. \*\*Jophiel \*\*is just responding in kind to entitled posters like Cyros in posts 9 and specifically post 16, as a way of pointing out the rudeness of their position (that position being “fully reclined”, apparently). To be fair I did say that I would put my seat up if asked politely or if instructed to by the attendant. I look at it as I am doing you a favor by putting my seat up and if you want me to do you a favor then you should act in a way that would dispose me to act favorable towards you. Using a Knee Defender is a passive aggressive move that deserves no respect and I would out you to the attendant and let them deal with you(and put my seat back as soon as you have removed it). In this particular case the recliner was also in the wrong and they both deserved getting the boot. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/77 "2014-08-27T17:12:03Z")
**NO.** Anyone who thinks it is okay to restrict _someone else_ from reclining (or for that matter from doing anything that is an allowed standard) is a complete asshole. It wasn’t mentioned but I bet the asshole reclined his own seat. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Stilettos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/fbc32d/32.png) [@Red\_Stilettos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Stilettos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/78 "2014-08-27T17:12:34Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I agree that it is the airline’s fault but I do not agree with that logic. I am a little over 6 feet tall and was on COPA airlines a few months ago from Panama City, Panama to Boston, MA. I take it that COPA expects their Central American passengers to be on the short and slight side and I am not even though I am not that big at all for an American. > > On this flight, I was seated in the middle seat with two other American men that I didn’t know about my size on either side. There simply wasn’t enough room for all three of us in the row without getting intimate and going through some contortionist moves which we were forced to do. I was exhausted and found my best strategy was to just put my head on my tray table for the 5 hour flight and remain perfectly still while trying to force my body to be as small as possible. That was horrible but it was functional and I eventually fell asleep. > > Everything would have been fine until the woman in front of me decided to recline her seat back quickly. It caught my head in between the back of her seat, my tray table and my knees while I was asleep. It was truly terrifying because I woke up instantly, in pain with my head effectively caught in a vice lock. I screamed because it hurt badly and somehow twisted my jaw in a way that screwed up eating for a couple of weeks. I also got a cut on my forehead from one of those plastic laminated cards in the back of the seat and started bleeding all over everything. > > I had to push hard on the back of the seat to free my head and I asked the woman in the best Spanish I could to put her seat back up but she refused (maybe she didn’t understand me because I don’t know the words for "Head crushed’ and ‘Bleeding’ that well but anyone should be able to react to screams of pain when they slam someone’s head in vice grips). > > It could have been worse. The situation could have truly injured my nose, eyes or lots more if I was positioned a little differently. I have had my knees crushed plenty of times on other flights but that is the only time I have been stuck in a space so confirmed, it isn’t just uncomfortable, it can be injurious and there is little that you can do about it unless you are a circus midget. > > In any other context, that would be both a product liability concern for the airline’s themselves as well as a potential assault charge for anyone that hurts someone behind them by using the seats as a weapon but some people can’t see that for some reason. If you take an umbrella and stab someone in the eye with it on purpose on a crowded train, everyone would expect you to get arrested for it. If you take out someone’s knees on a plane, many people see it as the perfect right of the person that did it just because they bought a ticket. > > I do not buy the logic either ethically or legally. I did buy a better ticket but it got changed to the last available seat on the plane through circumstances beyond my control. That can happen to anyone. I am not sure why people think that you should have to risk pain or even injury just so someone else can move their seat back 3 inches in a space where that isn’t physically possible. This is horrible, but I don’t see how it is the woman’s fault. It isn’t reasonable for her to expect that a full-grown man has his head on the tray table, asleep. If she glanced back, she’d probably see an empty seat and think all is clear. Now, I agree that once you yelped, she should have put her seat up, but the initial problem isn’t her fault. When I fly, I assume the passenger in front of me will, at some point, recline. I don’t even like to use my laptop on the tray table for fear that it might get squashed if the seat reclines. Did you not think that might be a risk when you fell asleep on the tray table? I’m not saying it’s your fault either. It seems to be a risk inherent in the construction of the seat. The airline should either change the seat/tray design or not allow passengers to lay their head on the tray. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/79 "2014-08-27T17:29:09Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Honestly, for a very long time I had no idea that reclining my seat would have a negative impact on the passenger behind me. It probably didn’t, depending on how old you are. Airlines used to have more room. When I was a young novice flyer in the 80s, there was enough room for the person in front to recline. I used to be able to fit a small suitcase under the seat in front and still have room to move around. Now my knees hit the seat back in front of me under normal takeoff conditions. My legs have not grown since then! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/80 "2014-08-27T17:29:22Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Anyway, my point is for a very long time I had no clue that reclining the seat was an issue. For that very long time seat rows were pitched at 35 inches, not 31. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=5)