# Knee Defender - Yea or Nea? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584 "2014-08-26T20:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/81 "2014-08-27T17:39:03Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I had to push hard on the back of the seat to free my head and I asked the woman in the best Spanish I could to put her seat back up but she refused (maybe she didn’t understand me because I don’t know the words for "Head crushed’ and ‘Bleeding’ that well but anyone should be able to react to screams of pain when they slam someone’s head in vice grips). She refused?? So what happened after? You had to squirm out of that position yourself without help? Did the flight attendant interject? * * * I voted some other something. I don’t feel its selfish to recline BUT I also don’t think its selfish to ask that someone else not recline. Selfish is when you take only yourself in consideration without respect for others’ feelings. Asking someone not to recline takes consideration of others’ feelings because the act of asking means you are not selfish. But there is a twist: I believe that there is a correct response to a request not to recline and that is to not recline. Some of you will think that if there is a “correct” answer, then that means that ultimately the person has no choice, but you’re wrong. The choice is between being selfish and not being selfish. If someone asks you not to do something, they have made their feelings clear on the subject and they have the consideration to ask your feelings on it. That proves they are not selfish. Your response will show whether or not you are. Of course its the airlines fault for shrinking the seats so much, but I don’t believe that just because you can do something, you should, and that absolves you of all responsibility towards your fellow man. This isn’t a legal issue, this is a moral one. Not reclining when you can and when you want to for the sake of someone else shows character and morals. If you don’t care about that, then be a dick. * * * Something that puzzles me in all this: the Knee Defender clips to the arms holding up the tray, but why would that prevent the seat from reclining? Isn’t the fulcrum of the seat back located on the bottom of the entire airplane chair, where the back and the seat meet? What kind of stupid design decision pivots the back into a separate tray holding arm? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/82 "2014-08-27T17:48:19Z")
People over six feet make on average more than 5K annually more than people 5’6" [tall](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/). So, even if you spring for the extra cost of economy plus for every flight you take, you’re probably coming out ahead. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/83 "2014-08-27T17:49:24Z")
The illustrations I’ve seen show the clips installed with the tray table already down. They clamp onto the arms at the tray sides, which are mounted onto the frame and do not move with the seat back. So, you do save knee room but at the cost of, er, belly room, which may be an issue itself. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/84 "2014-08-27T17:54:31Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > People over six feet make on average more than 5K annually more than people 5’6" [tall](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Careers/02/02/cb.tall.people/). So, even if you spring for the extra cost of economy plus for every flight you take, you’re probably coming out ahead. But what if your employer is buying the ticket? Mine only springs for business class on overseas flights. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/85 "2014-08-27T18:16:32Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > But what if your employer is buying the ticket? Mine only springs for business class on overseas flights. Mine too, but if I want to upgrade on my dime, that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/86 "2014-08-27T18:18:20Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Something that puzzles me in all this: the Knee Defender clips to the arms holding up the tray, but why would that prevent the seat from reclining? Isn’t the fulcrum of the seat back located on the bottom of the entire airplane chair, where the back and the seat meet? What kind of stupid design decision pivots the back into a separate tray holding arm? The Knee Defender user first lowers his tray table. If you’ve ever used that tray table, then you know that its support arms pivot away from the seat back in front of you when you do this. Then the Knee Defenders get wedged in between the tray-table’s arms and the back of the seat that’s in front of you. Without the KD’s, the person in front of you can recline their seat as far as your tray-table’s arms; with the KD’s, the seat back is prevented from reclining at all. The seat back’s pivot axis is indeed located near the seat pan, as is the pivot of the tray table. When the tray table is in the “upright and locked” position, they both recline together; when the tray table is lowered, the seat back reclines only until it meets the tray table’s arms. That stupid design, as you describe it, is used on pretty much every commercial aircraft I can ever recall flying on. I would bet that the airlines don’t like KD’s because when someone tries to recline their seatback, the KD’s transfer all of that force to the tray-table’s spindly arms, which really weren’t designed to resist that kind of load. Imagine someone trying to recline, and finding they’re unable to do so; they assume the mechanism is perhaps a bit sticky so then they apply a lot of force. I wonder how often a tray table has been broken because of this, necessitating an expensive repair. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/87 "2014-08-27T18:18:24Z")
In my opinion, it’s rude to recline the seat unless the one behind you is unoccupied. As a tallish person, I don’t appreciate being kneecapped in flight. But if you’re going to do it, do it slowly. I’ll take the seat recliners over the dolts who put their massive carryons in the overhead bin. Then the next guy doesn’t have room for his stuff and has to go forward or back to store it, and everybody takes longer to get off as they fetch it from the bins. My perfect airline has non-reclining seats and no overhead bins. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/88 "2014-08-27T18:18:53Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I would ask first, of course, because I am polite and civilized, and know the world doesn’t revolve around me. > > But if it was some entitled jerk, such as some posters in this thread, or the woman on the plane that started this OP, they probably wouldn’t unrecline, and then we’d have to see what level of escalation was necessary. What if the person in front of them is reclined? Is she now required to ask that person, who in turn has to ask the person in front of them and onward? I think reclining is silly, but if the person in front of me does it, then I do it as well to regain that space. And if the person behind me asks me to unrecline, then I’m going to require that they get the person in front of me to do so first. And if you put in a knee defender, I will consider it my duty to recline even if I don’t want to! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/89 "2014-08-27T18:26:07Z")
Imagine if a first-class passenger used a device to prevent a fellow first-class passenger from reclining his seat 180 degrees to serve as a bed - a first-class feature the other passenger had paid $1,000 for. The other passenger would rightfully throw a fit. Different situation, but same concept. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/90 "2014-08-27T18:27:16Z")
_aerospace engineer reporting_ The seat defender should definitely not be allowed. I’ll note that airlines continue to engineer their seats and passenger interfaces to very outdated human factors profiles (pre-19070s) and do not acknowledge or address modern demographics and ranges of humans. They do this deliberately to maximize seating. Except KLM, they are the model airline to look for when booking for seating and interiors that respect the tall segments of the populace due to their own taller-than-average native populace. The best way to address it in general is, if you are long/tall/inflexible in some way that you know that a reclined seat in front of you will cause you direct pain and discomfort, buy your ticket up front while requesting special accommodations (like you would with disabilities, small children, etc). If you blindly buy your ticket with foreknowledge that your knees will get crushed, then it’s your own fault, not the fault of the passenger in front of you or the airline. Passive-aggressive attempts to blame others in the cabin deserve to be scorned. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/91 "2014-08-27T18:51:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > For that very long time seat rows were pitched at 35 inches, not 31. Well then my point stands. If for a very long time reclining wasn’t a problem, then I don’t think people should assume seat recliners are being intentionally inconsiderate. ---
**Author:** ![SpeedwayRyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@SpeedwayRyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpeedwayRyan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/92 "2014-08-27T19:00:07Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > I’ve often wondered if it would be better if everyone leaned their seats back all at once. I would lose the three inches in front of me, but I’d gain three inches by leaning back, and the same would be true for every row. Doesn’t really work that way, though. I’m 6’-1", and if I’m sitting normally, when the person in front of me reclines, the seat back bashes into my knees. If I recline my seat, my back is now at a different angle, and I’ve taken away the legroom of the seat behind me, but I didn’t gain ANY of that legroom back. If they were sliding seats like the front seats of a car, you could “gain that space back,” but that’s not the case…it’s just the angle of the seat back. I really dislike when people in front of me recline their seats, although I figure it’s their right. I take a glance behind me – if it’s a guy my height or taller, I don’t even consider it. If it’s a little kid with tons of legroom, I’ll recline. If it’s a petite woman or something, I’ll probably ask if they mind. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/93 "2014-08-27T19:18:18Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > Except KLM, they are the model airline to look for when booking for seating and interiors that respect the tall segments of the populace due to their own taller-than-average native populace. Funny. The last time I flew KLM it was the worst experience I’ve ever had. The seat in front of me leaned back far enough that I ha problems walked on and off for a couple of months. I dislike flying because it’s too cramped. Even if I do pay more for the extra room, it’s not a whole lot. Plus now some of the airlines are putting all the electronic crap under the seats so there’s no room for my feet to go under there. The worst people are the ones who do recline, then when I ask them to put it up so I can get out tell me no, then get mad when I hit their seat. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/94 "2014-08-27T19:20:08Z")
I just read this afternoon that the Knee Defender dude was actually in Economy Plus on United. That means the guy already had an extra 3-4 inches of legroom compared to economy passengers, but didn’t want the passenger in front to recline. I’ve been in Economy Plus on United flights many, many dozens of times. The idea of a reclining seat causing some discomfort is damned insane. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/95 "2014-08-27T19:26:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I just read this afternoon that the Knee Defender dude was actually in Economy Plus on United. That means the guy already had an extra 3-4 inches of legroom compared to economy passengers, but didn’t want the passenger in front to recline. > > I’ve been in Economy Plus on United flights many, many dozens of times. The idea of a reclining seat causing some discomfort is damned insane. With that additional knowledge, I now not only endorse her anger at him, but her dousing him with a beverage as well. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/96 "2014-08-27T19:38:56Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > But what if your employer is buying the ticket? Mine only springs for business class on overseas flights. Lucky. Even if flying to Mars, I have to book economy. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/97 "2014-08-27T19:57:07Z")
I’ll be okay with this when it becomes acceptable for me to try to shove my way in front of tall people when I go to concerts. I’m sorry that you’re being put into a position where your body type isn’t optimal, but sometimes that’s just the way life is. If it’s a serious problem for you, be a grownup and ask me to put my seat up. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/98 "2014-08-27T20:41:35Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I just read this afternoon that the Knee Defender dude was actually in Economy Plus on United. That means the guy already had an extra 3-4 inches of legroom compared to economy passengers, but didn’t want the passenger in front to recline. Did they say how tall the person was? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/99 "2014-08-27T21:16:17Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > …My perfect airline has non-reclining seats and no overhead bins. Fly DOA Airlines. 1st in the air, 1st on the ground. Reclining seats are never a problem. Arriving at an airport is your main concern. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![UncleRojelio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unclerojelio/32/3160_2.png) [@UncleRojelio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleRojelio)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/100 "2014-08-27T21:49:12Z")
I don’t see what the big deal is. When the person in front of me reclines his seat, I recline mine. This is followed shortly by my snoring. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=6)