# Knee Defender - Yea or Nea? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 26, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584 "2014-08-26T20:33:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/121 "2014-08-28T04:29:07Z")
I don’t like to recline my seat. I am far more comfortable sitting upright. If the person infront reclines, I have a few problems, Firstly, I can’t use my tray table for anything, and secondly - now the seat is uncomfortably close to my face. When the seat in front reclines, I invariably recline my own or I start to get a sense of “squish” (it doesn’t hurt my knees) I believe in the story cited, the knee defender was used so that the guy could use his laptop on the flight - which can’t be done if the seat in front is reclined. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/122 "2014-08-28T04:35:18Z")
In case you don’t think I have any real ideas, I can prove that wrong with this post. I would have to draw it up to see how it would work overall but it seems like a big improvement as a casual thought. However, it is only one of many possibilities. Always, remember, an airliner is just basically a very large tube that can be used in any way that you see fit but the general passenger accommodation design is both very needlessly conservative and very poor in most aspects. Here is an alternate design that I just thought of: 1. Take down all of the overhead bins. All storage goes straight under your own seat in small lockers that are almost as big as traditional overhead space today but, well personal. There is no fighting for space. You get your space and it is done. You may think that is not possible but it just freed up a lot of space to make that happen because of the other aspects of the design. 2. You now have a whole lot more height available to everyone. 3. Make every other seat or row raised in a geometric pattern so that everyone gets more personal space. I would have to draw it up to see the optimal configuration but my first thoughts are that everything about it is vastly superior to overhead bins and you could easily arrange such a cabin so that even the middle seats don’t have any tray to knee issues. I am describing seats in an up and down step pattern by row or pattern so that everyone gets to take advantage of the height of the cabin which there is plenty of (especially with the overhead bins gone). This is just a simple rethinking of an airplane cabin. Can anyone tell me why something like it wouldn’t be a better solution for mid-sized jets and above? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/123 "2014-08-28T04:51:36Z")
I think it’s amusing that people like **Shagnasty** and **BobLibDem** say that because they are tall and re hurt by people in front if them reclining, that they consider reclining when someone is behind them to be rude and they never do it. I’m 5’8" and having someone recline in front of me is never more than a very minor annoyance. I would no more expect the person in front of me to refrain from even asking to recline than I would expect them to refrain from eating their airline-provided meal on the off chance that their chewing noises might discomfit me. Until I read this thread and a similar earlier one, it never occurred to me that someone tall could actually be injured by a reclining seat in front of them, and I have to admit I reacted slightly rude the one time someone (slightly rudely) objected to my reclining. Now that I know, however, I make a point of reclining slowly and checking that the person behind me isn’t giant. (In light of this thread, I may have to step up to actually asking before reclining, although I have to admit that I bristle at the thought that someone who _wouldn’t_ actually be medically injured might say “No” just because they can. Petty of me, I know!) Someone like **Shagnasty** or **BobLibDem** certainly isn’t being petty or inconsiderate in refraining from reclining their own seat. Just the opposite! But in their own way, they’re being just as self-centered as I was in assuming that everyone else is affected by an action the same way they would be. In their case, though, they’re only making themselves less comfortable! (Unless reclning their own seat would somehow make their knees fit under the seat in front when it reclines, in which case that’s probably the best for everyone.) Anyway, if the Leg Defender is banned, what about wearing some sort of knee pads? It might not solve the problem completely, but if it avoids accute injury to a knee that’s had multiple surgeries, it seems like something I would try. ---
**Author:** ![vsyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vsyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vsyr)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/124 "2014-08-28T05:00:54Z")
You know, I would be completely fine with it if the people who I sit behind weren’t assholes 98% of the time. I’ve never been asked if it was ok to recline, even in situations when the person ahead of me knew I was unhappy with the current seating situation (since I’m 6’4 I had paid for a seat with extra legroom but they had situation where they couldn’t offer it, so I was moved.) It dug into my knees and I’m telling you the pain after 5-10 minutes was so bad I had to get up and walk around for the next 20 minutes until the flight attendant asked me to sit down. I explained the situation and it wasn’t until after a 10 minute argument between the guy and the flight attendant that he agreed to put it half way in the reclining position. I don’t know if it’s just me, but I usually never recline if I know the person behind me is eating or working. Last year on a 4 hour flight the person in front of me reclined after I had just been served a coffee and proceeded to spill it everywhere. At least I got an apology. Anyway, yea, from my purely subjective and biased standpoints I’m completely up for the knee defender. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/125 "2014-08-28T05:25:38Z")
[Relevant op-ed](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/upshot/dont-want-me-to-recline-my-airline-seat-you-can-pay-me.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/126 "2014-08-28T05:27:42Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I think it’s amusing that people like **Shagnasty** and **BobLibDem** say that because they are tall and re hurt by people in front if them reclining, that they consider reclining when someone is behind them to be rude and they never do it. I’m 5’8" and having someone recline in front of me is never more than a very minor annoyance. I would no more expect the person in front of me to refrain from even asking to recline than I would expect them to refrain from eating their airline-provided meal on the off chance that their chewing noises might discomfit me. I always appreciate recognition **Alan Smithee** , I really do. It provides valuable internet references. However, once again people are missing the point because they have no context for it. You are 5’8" which is perfect for standard airline seats. They love you. Your body is custom built for them and you are a match made in heaven. You seem to think that people that are taller are just complaining about nothing because we like to bitch. That isn’t true. I have a freakishly high pain tolerance to most things including women, hot peppers and near drowning. I will be the first to tell you, I love being fairly tall. It has gotten me women, jobs, probably more salary than necessary, undeserved respect and lots more. It is flat out awesome in general. The only normal disadvantage to it is knocking the shit out of head when going through tight caves or trying to climb into an exotic car under the influence. However, I am describing a different scenario here. There is a true design flaw in those seats that is quite painful for anyone over 6 feet tall. It is about as funny as a 1980 Ford Pinto getting rear ended at high speed (OK, that is pretty funny today but it wasn’t back then). I told anyone how to simulate it earlier in the thread and nobody took me up on it. It is a very nonviolent stunt. You seem like a Mythbusters kind of guy. Can you get someone to give fairly mild but very heavy blows to your knee with your eyes closed to simulate the loss of control of someone hitting you in the knees with a seat? Just have someone take a plate and hit you in the knee with it on edge a few times in various places on the front and inside edges with moderate speed but at least 140 lbs of inertia. It probably won’t do any damage. Just sit with your feet on the floor and have someone do some slow hits to the front and inside edges of your knees while keeping your legs pinned firmly to the floor. Report back with the honest results. I am dead serious about this. Anyone that is not willing to do it in a serious way needs to refrain from commenting in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/127 "2014-08-28T06:04:17Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > In case you don’t think I have any real ideas, I can prove that wrong with this post. I would have to draw it up to see how it would work overall but it seems like a big improvement as a casual thought. However, it is only one of many possibilities. Always, remember, an airliner is just basically a very large tube that can be used in any way that you see fit but the general passenger accommodation design is both very needlessly conservative and very poor in most aspects. > > Here is an alternate design that I just thought of: > > 1. Take down all of the overhead bins. All storage goes straight under your own seat in small lockers that are almost as big as traditional overhead space today but, well personal. There is no fighting for space. You get your space and it is done. You may think that is not possible but it just freed up a lot of space to make that happen because of the other aspects of the design. > > 2. You now have a whole lot more height available to everyone. > > 3. Make every other seat or row raised in a geometric pattern so that everyone gets more personal space. I would have to draw it up to see the optimal configuration but my first thoughts are that everything about it is vastly superior to overhead bins and you could easily arrange such a cabin so that even the middle seats don’t have any tray to knee issues. I am describing seats in an up and down step pattern by row or pattern so that everyone gets to take advantage of the height of the cabin which there is plenty of (especially with the overhead bins gone). > > This is just a simple rethinking of an airplane cabin. Can anyone tell me why something like it wouldn’t be a better solution for mid-sized jets and above? I fly a lot for work. Interesting thread. I like your idea. Keep in mind evacuation paths. If you’ve got a lot of steps, would that muck up cabin clearance times? I’d say, consider regular load and unload times, but I could get used to something like you’re describing pretty fast. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/128 "2014-08-28T06:44:56Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I always appreciate recognition **Alan Smithee** , I really do. It provides valuable internet references. However, once again people are missing the point because they have no context for it. You are 5’8" which is perfect for standard airline seats. They love you. Your body is custom built for them and you are a match made in heaven. > > You seem to think that people that are taller are just complaining about nothing because we like to bitch. That isn’t true. I have a freakishly high pain tolerance to most things including women, hot peppers and near drowning. I will be the first to tell you, I love being fairly tall. It has gotten me women, jobs, probably more salary than necessary, undeserved respect and lots more. It is flat out awesome in general. The only normal disadvantage to it is knocking the shit out of head when going through tight caves or trying to climb into an exotic car under the influence. > > However, I am describing a different scenario here. There is a true design flaw in those seats that is quite painful for anyone over 6 feet tall. It is about as funny as a 1980 Ford Pinto getting rear ended at high speed (OK, that is pretty funny today but it wasn’t back then). I told anyone how to simulate it earlier in the thread and nobody took me up on it. It is a very nonviolent stunt. > > You seem like a Mythbusters kind of guy. Can you get someone to give fairly mild but very heavy blows to your knee with your eyes closed to simulate the loss of control of someone hitting you in the knees with a seat? Just have someone take a plate and hit you in the knee with it on edge a few times in various places on the front and inside edges with moderate speed but at least 140 lbs of inertia. It probably won’t do any damage. Just sit with your feet on the floor and have someone do some slow hits to the front and inside edges of your knees while keeping your legs pinned firmly to the floor. Report back with the honest results. I am dead serious about this. Anyone that is not willing to do it in a serious way needs to refrain from commenting in this thread. You might want to read my post again. I USED to think ONE person complained to me because he liked to bitch. Partly because he was rude about it and partly because I’d never heard anyone else of any height complain about reclining seats. (I was ignorant, IOW.) I’ve since then had my ignorance fought, seen the light, and fully appreciate that just because the airline saw fit to design the seats in a certain way and it doesn’t bother me when they’re used that way doesn’t mean that it’s actually safe for everyone if I use them that way. I’ve changed my opinion and my behavior, and I am considering the possibility in view of your earlier posts in this thread that I might have to change my behavior even more. I know misery loves company, and you’re right that I enjoy practical science as much as the next guy, but can I please get a pass on the experimental knee bashing? This is one area in which I am perfectly willing to take your word for it! ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/129 "2014-08-28T06:53:31Z")
Too late to add as an edit: Rereading my own earlier post, I see I may not have been clear about my point. Your not reclining at all (assuming you would be more comfortable reclining) is just as silly as (though more pro-social and less harmful than) my previous habit of reclining thoughtlessly. Since some people are hurt by reclining seats and some aren’t bothered by them at all, the obvious solution is to ASK before reclining, if you want to recline. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/130 "2014-08-28T10:37:24Z")
One reason why it am less sympathetic to the tall guys here is I’ve flown pretty often with a buddy who is six foot eight. He calls ahead and usually gets a bulkhead or aisle. But he does now and then get a normal seat and it is uncomfortable, but not the end of the freaking world. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/131 "2014-08-28T11:53:37Z")
Sorry, that came off as too harsh. I am quite protective of my cheap seats. I don’t think it’s incumbent on the average passenger to ask if they would like to use their seat to it’s full function- if you want me to do something special for you, you gotta ask. Otherwise the assumption is that people will use their seats as seats. I’m happy to moderate my recline for people who need it. I won’t even consider not reclining because you’d like to use your laptop. This isn’t Air Force One. Chances are that “short haul” flight for you is the first leg in a 25 hour journey for me, and I am going for every second of sleep I can get. ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/132 "2014-08-28T12:05:25Z")
I voted option # 3 although I have flown coach in the US enough times to recognize that this sort of civility is quite rare. Fortunately for me, I get to fly Business Class for most of my trips. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/133 "2014-08-28T13:15:04Z")
> [@DrumBum](#): > > I voted option # 3 although I have flown coach in the US enough times to recognize that this sort of civility is quite rare. Fortunately for me, I get to fly Business Class for most of my trips. You’re very lucky that business class is available. I rarely see it any more except on real long hauls. The people that say “Just purchase stretch seating, or upgrade to first/business class” don’t understand that often, it’s simply not available. My wife and I book way in advance, and it’s VERY rare that an exit row is still available. Anyway, NO to the “Seat Defender” I wouldn’t use it, and am sure it will soon be banned on airlines. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/134 "2014-08-28T13:37:10Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Anyway, NO to the “Seat Defender” I wouldn’t use it, and am sure it will soon be banned on airlines. [It already is.](http://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/35765/which-airlines-ban-the-use-of-knee-defenders-during-flight) All the major US carriers ban it, along with many others. It was in fact prohibited on the United flight that started this discussion. A flight attendant had asked the KD user to remove it, and he refused. The woman in front of him then doused him with a glass of water, which was enough to get her booted from the plane. There’s no indicationt that he retaliated after that, so it appears that his refusal to remove the KD was by itself enough to get him booted from the plane along with her. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/135 "2014-08-28T14:16:19Z")
> [@eenerms](#): > > I flew once where a guy put his feet under my seat and in the area where my feet went. Wtf! I said you can’t put your feet there. He said tough:confused: I’m a polite traveller. So I stomped on them:D While the woman in the incident we’re discussing here was clearly out of line when she doused the Knee Defender guy with water, the situation you describe is one where you could easily get away with ‘accidentally’ spilling your soda on this guy’s feet. Nobody can show you were doing it to retaliate (unlike with the stomping), especially if you get all apologetic once you ‘realize’ what you’ve done. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/136 "2014-08-28T14:42:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Imagine if a first-class passenger used a device to prevent a fellow first-class passenger from reclining his seat 180 degrees to serve as a bed - a first-class feature the other passenger had paid $1,000 for. The other passenger would rightfully throw a fit. > Different situation, but same concept. Only if reclining that seat into a bed seriously impinged upon the other first class passenger’s space while sitting up. To me, it seems like the miniscule amount of comfort afforded by leaning back that tiny amount isn’t worth reducing the space of the person behind me. I just don’t get the self-centered people that basically have the “Fuck the guy behind me, I paid for a reclining seat, and by God, I’m going to recline.” mentality. It falls in the same category of common courtesy on flights as not farting, not picking and eating boogers, not digging in your crotch, bathing and wearing deodorant beforehand, and not taking off your shoes to regale the other fliers with stinky feet. Everyone’s in it together on flights these days; they’ve got the seats so close together that anything one person does impacts someone else. Non-assholic people have to be mindful of that and take one for the team, so to speak, and not lean back unless it’s “night” time and everyone’s trying to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/137 "2014-08-28T15:08:19Z")
Tall privilege. Seriously, tall people earn [$789](http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html) more per year per inch, are considered more physically [attractive](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201306/why-women-want-tall-men) than short people, are apparently uniquely qualified to [run companies](http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2014/06/09/tall-ceos-how-height-helps/) or be [President of the United States](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heights_of_presidents_and_presidential_candidates_of_the_United_States). The trade off is that you have slight discomfort for a few hours every year, which is at least partially avoidable by dipping into your increased accumulated [wealth](http://cosmosmagazine.com/news/tall-people-enjoy-better-wealth-and-health/), and you’ll make it up on the back end by [living longer](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-53440/Why-taller-people-live-longer.html) and generally being [happier](http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1913256,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/138 "2014-08-28T15:27:22Z")
> [@Renee](#): > > I have a lot of sympathy for tall people on planes. I’m 5’2", and my legs barely fit in those seats. If I want to recline, I look behind me and make sure some huge tall person isn’t wedged in before I do so. I don’t really like the “knee defender” thingie, though, it seems likely to cause problems. For me, it doesn’t even need to be tall people. I usually either ask, or return my seat to the upright position after a period, if I know it’s causing someone discomfort. Flying can be a shitty experience, and I’ve been that person in the back of the plane with nowhere to recline, while the person in front leisurely reclined into my space for their own comfort. It sucked, and only reinforced why I try to be reasonable with the people around me. ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/139 "2014-08-28T15:40:40Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Rest assured that I am not ever going to buy or ever use a Knee-Defender but the product is called that for a reason. It isn’t called a Space-Defender. It was developed for the purpose of not getting hurt intentionally or unintentionally by the airplane seat in front of you. The fact that there is a market for it indicates that there is a real problem with that issue for taller people and airline execs need to listen to that compliant. I endorse the Knee-Defender if only for this reason. It highlights a problem that needs to be addressed. It is not necessarily about absolute space, it is about the ability for some other person to arbitrarily and without warning, suddenly take away space that was previously available to you, that you may be occupying at the moment. The Knee-Defender prevents that from happening. I would be _content_ with some sort of alarm that warns me that the person if front is about to recline, so that I can reposition out of harm’s way. I would quite _happy_ with some system that required a button be pushed both in front of seat and behind it, so the passenger and the person behind him would have to communicate and cooperate to recline the seat. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584/140 "2014-08-28T15:46:14Z")
> [@JKilez](#): > > I would quite _happy_ with some system that required a button be pushed both in front of seat and behind it, so the passenger and the person behind him would have to communicate and cooperate to recline the seat. I’m picturing that scene in every movie involving nuclear detonation requiring two keys where one person is yelling “Turn your key, sir!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knee-defender-yea-or-nea/696584.md?page=8)