# Knicks/Nuggets Brawl - which coach is more wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 19, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780 "2006-12-19T14:51:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/1 "2006-12-19T14:51:00Z")
I have been reading this morning that, over and above Isiah Thomas apparently captured on tape before the brawl telling a Nugget not to charge the lane, that he has said after the brawl that the Nuggets coach, George Karl, “put his players in danger” buy having them run up the score on the Knicks. George Karl stated that Thomas was “full of shit” and a “jackass” and that he, Karl, has seen too many teams lose seemingly-big leads in the last minutes and he wasn’t trying to “run up the score” or “disrespect” the Knicks. Harvey Araton of the NYTimes seems to side with Thomas, saying Karl should’ve know that Thomas bites when provoked, basically. The morning drive ESPN team - Mike Golic and somebody subbing for Greenie - were 100% on Karl’s side - if someone does beat you by a lot, fine, be angry - but save that anger for the next game and beat them back; a flagrant foul and statements like Thomas’ afterwards are bad. Your thoughts? I am inclined to side with Karl; the only person who chose a dangerous path was Thomas… ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/2 "2006-12-19T15:09:47Z")
Isaiah Thomas is scum and is totally in the wrong. 20 point victories in the NBA happen on a nightly basis and are no big deal. Many times after you pull the starters, the other team comes back and you sometimes have to put your starters back in, which is embarassing. Thomas is pissed because he is once again proving to be an ineffective anything in basketball, outside of a player. Now, nothing that happened condones Anthony cold cocking a player who fouled someone else- if Anthony had been fouled and his reaction were immediate, it would be one thing, but it was five minutes after a foul on a teammate. Pure thuggery, but like with Ron Artest, it probably would not have happened without the initial stupidity. And David Stern is a total hypocrite if it is confirmed that Thomas warned Anthony not to drive the lane, he should be suspended for at least as long as Anthony- its no different than what John Chaney at Temple did a while back. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/3 "2006-12-19T15:26:21Z")
It’s hard not to blame Thomas for this. His attitude just playground childishness. Hell, even Araton seems to be saying that Thomas was in the wrong, just that Karl should have known Thomas was a thug. The way to keep someone from running up the score is to not let them get in a position to run up the score in the first place. And if you hand the ball to the other team (as the Knicks did on the play), don’t get all in your face if the other team tries to score. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/4 "2006-12-19T16:12:32Z")
I’m confused. I haven’t been following this at all. It sounds like you’re saying that the coach of one team is mad because the other team outscored them by a lot…and didn’t slow down and keep the scores somewhat close. Is that really what he’s saying? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/5 "2006-12-19T16:42:15Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] I’m confused. I haven’t been following this at all. It sounds like you’re saying that the coach of one team is mad because the other team outscored them by a lot…and didn’t slow down and keep the scores somewhat close. Is that really what he’s saying? [/QUOTE] Oh yeah - that’s it exactly. There is a long-standing tradition that, because there are no mercy rules in pro sports (where a game is ended of a lead gets too big) that a winning does not show up the losing team. It is clear in this example that Isiah Thomas verbally warned a Nuggets player not to keep trying to score for this very reason. When a Nuggets player did try to score on a steal, it appears that Thomas called for a flagrant foul to “send a message” which led to the melee. This is also common in baseball - there are many subtle rules about it to my understanding. Like you can’t steal a base after the 7th inning if you’re up by 5 runs or something like that. A perceived infraction of one of these unstated rules can lead to a pitcher beaning a batter, or spikes high on a steal attempt, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Smooth\_Jack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Smooth\_Jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smooth_Jack)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/6 "2006-12-19T16:52:48Z")
I didn’t watch the game, but was told by someone who did that the Knicks start putting in their second team toward the end, basically conceding the game. If that’s the case, I don’t have a problem with the flagrant foul. When a team goes belly up, you lay off them and take the win. You don’t rub their face in it. The ensuing brawl was overboard, or course. The suspensions are appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/7 "2006-12-19T17:04:45Z")
[QUOTE=JSexton] I’m confused. I haven’t been following this at all. It sounds like you’re saying that the coach of one team is mad because the other team outscored them by a lot…and didn’t slow down and keep the scores somewhat close. Is that really what he’s saying? [/QUOTE] Its not exactly like that, but yeah sorta. The coach of the losing team (Isaiah Thomas) had basically already conceded the game by pulling out all his best players and replacing them with the bench warmers, while the coach with the big lead (George Karl) left his best players in the game who then proceeded to dominate the bench warmers and “run up the score” when they clearly already had the game won. This is considered disrespectful by some people so Thomas basically threatened the best player on the other team with a hard foul if they didn’t cut it out, someone was fouled hard then a brawl happened. Thomas and Anthony are both thugs and both should have been punished, if someone runs up the score on your team that should be motivation for the next time you meet them not an excuse to take down their best player. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/8 "2006-12-19T17:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=Smooth Jack] I didn’t watch the game, but was told by someone who did that the Knicks start putting in their second team toward the end, basically conceding the game. If that’s the case, I don’t have a problem with the flagrant foul. When a team goes belly up, you lay off them and take the win. You don’t rub their face in it. The ensuing brawl was overboard, or course. The suspensions are appropriate. [/QUOTE] Exactly. Isaiah Thomas is an ass. I hate him and what he’s done to the Knicks. But for George Karl to try to put on his shiny halo and act as if he was merely ensuring the win is ridiculous. There’s bad blood between him and Thomas that goes back to last season, when Thomas fired Larry Brown (who’s close friends with Karl). He was intentionally running the score up. He refused to take out his starters. His bench was more than capable of maintaining the lead. And Thomas made the call: If he drives the lane, foul him. He didn’t say “kill him,” and it was over the top. But any coach at any time can tell his team to foul anyone in the paint. Especially in the last two minutes. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/9 "2006-12-19T17:05:51Z")
[QUOTE=Smooth Jack] When a team goes belly up, you lay off them and take the win. You don’t rub their face in it. [/QUOTE] This is professional basketball we’re talking about, not a Little Dribblers game. If you can’t handle getting your ass handed to you by a better team, then you need to find another line of work. Thomas is a thug for not only inciting the fight by calling for a flagrant, but laughing about it in the postgame news conference. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/10 "2006-12-19T17:07:30Z")
It is all Isiah’s fault. This brawl, the Knicks this season, the Knicks last season. The sexual harrassment, the selling of our team for that do-nothing Marbury, 911, global warming. . . everything is that dumbass’ fault. Although, judging by last night’s game, the Knicks should always field 8 players. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/11 "2006-12-19T17:17:17Z")
[QUOTE=Biggirl] It is all Isiah’s fault. This brawl, the Knicks this season, the Knicks last season. The sexual harrassment, the selling of our team for that do-nothing Marbury, 911, global warming. . . everything is that dumbass’ fault. [/QUOTE] Letting Camby go for essentially nothing, not just shutting up and letting his coaches COACH, weaselling his way into the front office in the first place, and worst of all, for squeezing out Jeff Van Gundy. I will especially never forgive him for that. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/12 "2006-12-19T17:17:43Z")
While I do think it is 100% Thomas’ fault, when comparing the two coaches, I do think Karl was being stupid. Not stupid for running up the score or whatever, this is professional basketball, but because his player’s could get injured or could get involved in a fracas and, oh I don’t know, get themselves suspended for 15 games. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/13 "2006-12-19T17:19:42Z")
Crap, strike that. He came after Van Gundy resigned. I’m still blaming him, tho… ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/14 "2006-12-19T17:33:28Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] While I do think it is 100% Thomas’ fault. [/QUOTE] Shouldn’t a little bit of the blame go to the people who actually started throwing punches? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/15 "2006-12-19T17:35:12Z")
[QUOTE=DigitalC] Shouldn’t a little bit of the blame go to the people who actually started throwing punches? 😛 [/QUOTE] Why did you put a period in my quote? I clearly said “While I do think it is 100% Thomas’ fault, when comparing the two coaches…” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/16 "2006-12-19T17:41:43Z")
[QUOTE=Smooth Jack] When a team goes belly up, you lay off them and take the win. You don’t rub their face in it. [/QUOTE] Maybe they were wrong not to put their second team in, but nothing untoward happened on the play that lead to the fight. J.R. Smith (I think) got a steal and was going in for a score. The Knicks had come back once in that game, but there wasn’t enough time for anything else to happen and the Nuggets probably should have taken their starters out- but it’s not _that_ big a deal. The next time we have a thread about running up the score, I think I’ll just link to this thread… THIS is one good reason you don’t run up the score. To give Thomas a little bit of the doubt, it’s possible he was trying to warn Anthony and not threaten him - but I don’t really believe that. I think he’s a scuzz, and it’s a shame he wasn’t suspended. ---
**Author:** ![Smooth\_Jack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Smooth\_Jack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smooth_Jack)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/17 "2006-12-19T17:42:50Z")
Being a Pacers fan, I’m not trying to defend Thomas as a person, or a coach overall. Like **Maureen** said, it’s normal for a coach to call on his players to foul. It seems the Knicks had already given up. In an 80-game season, that happens sometimes. The coach might save his players for the next game. You know you’ve lost and start putting in back-ups to give them some experience. When the other team keeps in their starters, it’s insulting. It’s even a form of taunting. Sounds like Thomas told Karl to knock it off. Karl’s response was to keep pushing. I balme Karl for not winning gracefully. But, I don’t blame either one for the brawl itself. For that, the players need to maintain some self-control. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/18 "2006-12-19T17:44:41Z")
[QUOTE=Smooth Jack] I didn’t watch the game, but was told by someone who did that the Knicks start putting in their second team toward the end, basically conceding the game. If that’s the case, I don’t have a problem with the flagrant foul. When a team goes belly up, you lay off them and take the win. You don’t rub their face in it. The ensuing brawl was overboard, or course. The suspensions are appropriate. [/QUOTE] Thomas has said he’ll sit his starters when they’re not performing, and has done it before. Of course, his starters underperform quite often, and all are likely to get lots of splinters this season. Getting rid of Thomas would be like slapping a band aid on an amputated limb. First one to go should be Dolan, the owner. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/19 "2006-12-19T17:45:29Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] Crap, strike that. He came after Van Gundy resigned. I’m still blaming him, tho… [/QUOTE] I agree. Blame him and is Sports Crime Overlord James Dolan. I wonder what Isiah has on him that this guy will cover, wheedle and excuse any and all nasty behavior Isiah exhibits. Bad-mouth Larry Bird for no good reason whatsoever? Dolan is there to soothe ruffle feathers. Make sexually charged advances towards a female exec? Dolan says he was there (all the time? at every meeting?) and Isiah didn’t do it. Kick Chaney into the street a few hours before game time? Dolan is A-OK with that. Van Gundy is squarely on Dolan’s shoulders, though. My poor, poor Knicks. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780/20 "2006-12-19T17:47:30Z")
[QUOTE=D\_Odds] Getting rid of Thomas would be like slapping a band aid on an amputated limb. First one to go should be Dolan, the owner. [/QUOTE] Yeah, what he said. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/knicks-nuggets-brawl-which-coach-is-more-wrong/384780.md?page=2)