Knife fighting... I don't get it...

Of course fencing has beauty-- it’s more of an artistic sport than an actual combat technique. In a real fight, somebody would stick his foil through your liver, and the only artistry would be in the spouts of blood spurting out of your torso.

Western “martial arts” have a lineage of sneaky tricks, underhanded maneuvers, and all-around dirty fighting to make sure the other guys dies and you don’t.

If you’re concentrating on the artistic impression being made on the audience while you spar, you’re going to lose.

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OneTwoThreeGo!
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The resident Czech doper is TomCat.

Beat me to it, dorkus. Tomcat it is. Capital fellow.

And for the record, if an attacker holds a knife in any grip, reverse or otherwise, I’m running like hell. I like my knife fighting in the abstract rubber variety and my insides inside, thankyouvettymuch!

Allow me to pass along somebody else’s two cents…

I have a passing aquaintence with this guy, Marc “Animal” MacYoung ( I was at his handfasting, although he doesn’t know me) and his website gives lots of interesting information on practical self-defense.

Heh. My husband was in a bar one night and some drunken asshole started waving his knife around and talking tough. My husband walked up to him and TOOK THE KNIFE AWAY from him. He told him he was being a jerk and wasn’t allowed to have his knife anymore. I’m not that brave. I think stabbing is a really yucky way to go. If I have to die in a bar room brawl, I’d rather be shot.

He had the knife for years before someone broke in and stole his entire knife collection. :frowning:

China Guy-
I study Shaolin Kempo (Not at the dojo in the link, they just have a good description of the art)

Just to elaborate on this: I have a brown belt in Kempo. And yes, I have learned a few techniques to disarm/disable a guy with a knife. But at the same time I was learning those techniques, all of my instructors advised me to never, ever use them. If you’re up against a guy with a knife or a gun, they said, your best bet is to just give the guy what he wants. The only time to ever try to fight back against a knife or gun is when what the guy wants is specifically your life or that of your loved ones.

Now, it may be that the guidlines are different for someone more trained and experienced than I. And if I have a quarterstaff to the other guy’s knife, I might be inclined to try for it, on the principle of keeping him out of range. But on the whole, pravnik’s style of knife fighting is the best one.

One of the most humbling martial arts lessons I had was “reality” training one night in an aikido class. Basically, the instructor gave us training weapons and told us not to handicap our techniques…many welts ensued. :slight_smile:

Seriously, you don’t know the meaning of helplessness until you’re facing someone barehanded and they’ve got a sword…

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pravnik nailed it, when faced with a knife, run. If giving them your wallet would help, do that, then run.

I’ve studied Kali under a junior instructor at the Minnesota Kali Group . Great stuff, highly recommended.

As for the OP, Kali is a system of fighting based on ‘flow’, or flowing from one move to the next. You don’t trade tit-for-tat, you generally just go from one thing to another, be it defensive or offensive in nature. So, basically, if you are attacked, your defense becomes an offense or is both at the same time.

Kali is for both free-hand and with weapons. It is often taught with other forms (Panantukan, Thai boxing, grappling, etc.) so truthfully I wouldn’t be able to tell you where it starts or ends. But mainly when I think of Kali, I think of stick and knife training.

To start, I was taught with a rattan stick, and this is also interesting to point out that in Kali, the moves for most any weapon are the same, i.e. I use a stick the same way I would use a knife. The stick is a good way to start though because the moves are larger, and you can practice with sticks wherever you go (ever pick up a stick in the street and swing it?). Now, that doesn’t mean that every move is useful across all weapons, but you can inter-relate them.

Kali starts out with ‘lines’ of attack that form the basics of all moves. There are 12 basic ‘lines’ and if you picture a clock, they would go like this:

Line 1: From 1 to 7
Line 2: From 11 to 5
Line 3: From 3 to 9
Line 4: From 9 to 3
Line 5: Thrust straight forward to the middle
Line 6: Thrust straight forward to 1
Line 7: From Line 6, slice down in a ‘U’ and hit 11
Line 8: From 10 to 2
Line 9: From 5 to 11
Line 10: From 7 to 1
Line 11: From 12 to 6
Line 12: From 6 to 12

Now, these lines can be low, middle or high and can be applied to the attacks of both you and your opponent. So a left jab can be likened to a Line 7, a right hook is a Line 3, an uppercut is a Line 12, a front kick is a line 5, etc. So you train to attack and defend along these ‘lines of attack’, m’kay? So when I learn a block for Line 11, it is the same block I use whether it is a karate chop, a knife or a baseball bat. My attacks are the same, I attack a Line 1 with an elbow to the collar bone or knife slash accross the chest or Thai kick to the knee.

Back to sticks and knives. So once these lines are learned, you can flow from one line to the next fairly easily. So take a pencil everyone and follow me: Line 3, Line 4, Line 9 and Line 10 back into Line 3, Line 4, Line 9, Line 10, repeat. You now know one of the most basic combinations for stick and knife fighting in Kali, and it looks pretty too. It flows from one to the next to the next. Now, how you target these moves depends on what you want to do and what you have. If you have a knife and I have a stick, I am going to focus my lines on your hand to knock it away, then finish with a Line 11 on top of your head. If I had a knife, I would also go for your weapon hand (sliced knuckles hurt) and then maybe do a Line 5 to your upper arm, or a Line 6 to your neck.

And folks, what I just described is the first day of class. Some people study this for decades…you get into double stick, double knife, one stick and one knife, blocks, disarms, throws, parry’s, etc. etc. etc.

This is where a very stylish way of knife-fighting can be both effective and pretty. It is very much martial, but it can also be art.

As for other comments made above:

drhess, sticks are used cuz they are cheap and effective. A peasant can cut a rattan stick behind his hut and protect himself. In SE Asia there are a few woods that are SOLID. Iron wood is just that, strong as iron. It doesn’t even float, it sinks like a stone. But it is as tough as other fibrous woods, and legend has it that peasants would fight the Spanish and break their swords with these sticks by hitting them sideways! I’ve held an iron wood stick and can believe it.

Reverse grip: it’s just another grip, you train it too. You can do the Lines above with some minor adjustments. It is effective if you think how fast you can stab with a reverse grip, so a Line 3 can become a Line 7 almost instantly. I prefer forward grip because it gives you an extra few inches, and I mostly go for the hands, so those inches count. I can be completely out of your striking range and hit your hand or forearm very quickly. But if my knife got kicked out of my hand or I fumbled it and I managed to get it again, and I grabbed it reverse grip, I’m not going to waste time turning it around. So, good knife fighters train both ways (as well as both hands).

IMHO, people underestimate the damage a knife can do. I was once (foolishly) practicing with an open blade (some call it ‘live blade’) when I accidently cut myself. I cut the very tip of my left pinkie, straight in about a quarter of an inch. That little, itty-bitty, [sub]tiny[/sub] cut sent me to the school’s medical ward where they tried to get it to stop bleeding with some butterfly stiches. It didn’t stop. I was told that if it didn’t stop in 15 minutes I was going to have to go to the emergency room to get real stiches. Luckily it stopped bleeding, but still. A quarter inch deep, quarter inch long cut almost sent me to the hospital, and I still have a scar.

Now think about what a slice across the back of your hand would do? Look at your hand- see those tendons move when you wiggle your fingers? See the veins? What do you think a slice from a sharp knife will do there? What about your forearm? How would you like an 6 inch long, 1 inch deep cut there? And that is just 2 quick slashes on your leading arm, we haven’t even begun to talk about the rest of your body! Knife fighting is serious shit, avoid it at all possible costs.

-Tcat

Trained sticks and knives for several years, and basically learned I want nothing to do with a knife fight. I do not carry a blade, and have never been in a fist fight, let alone a knife fight.

Couple quick observations stream of thought.

There is a HUGE difference between most training and practical fighting. Ron Balicki’s knife tapping is beautiful and a lot of fun to practice, but precious few folk could come close to applying it in real life.
I remember one of Dan Inosanto’s comments concerning a nice stick lock/disarm flow series. He said something along the line of “That would be really nice, but I’d like to get in a few good shots to the other guy’s head before trying it.”
Many respected martial artists are very outspoken in their criticism of traditional styles of teaching knife/stick fighting. You could probably get some good quotes by googling Matt Thornton.
When we trained “alive” (as opposed to in set patterns/drills) we did little other than slash/slash/stab/who’s next? Keep your motions tight.
A fun drill is to practice with markers. (Or, you can get paint blades to also record slashes.) See how many marks you get on yourself. Then think about how many times you read news reports about people being stabbed an insane number of times. There are a limited number of targets that will bleed someone quickly.
To be able to fight with a knife, you also have to practice drawing it.
If you pull your knife, you should be prepared to use it.
If a guy is serious about using a knife, you won’t see it first.
I’ve had the opportunity to meet and talk with a few guys who had actually been in live knife fights. All of them had scars.
An valid goal can be to “defang the snake.” Go after an armed opponent’s weapon hand/wrist/arm to disarm him, before going after more vital targets.
Many people advocate weapon training to improve their attributes for other methods of self defense.
Timing and control of range is critical with weapons.
I now do fencing. While enjoyable, it has very little to do with self defense beyond distance and nonintentional striking.
While a knife is a scary thing to face, it can be very effective in evening out odds. Say against multiple unarmed attackers. Or for a woman against a larger opponent.

All of the above is just my opinion and based upon my fallible memory and limited experience. :wink:

Aw man, while I’m blathering on writing my post, that crazed Czech comes in with his flow pattern shit! :smiley:

While T-cat is correct that there are only so many lines that an attack can come from - whether it is a knife, stick, fist, foot, or whatever - every school of FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) has it’s own 8-10-12 count series. So many folks get caught up in memorizing different patterns, that they forget to learn how to apply them. And for every line, you can block it, trap it, redirect it, pass it…

In a real situation, as T says, you can flow from one line into others. However, you rarely will be confronted by a clean series of attacks. Instead, you get these little fragments of various elements.

Aw, heck. I’m rambling here. Just want to stress the value of alive training.

Moreover, you’ll go to a lot of gyms and see people clicking teir sticks together really rapidly. Can be really pretty. But it has nothing to do with fighting. You need to practice striking specific vital targets with power.

Watch some Dog Brothers’ tapes to see something close to what it really looks like.

Final observation, in teaching MA, I found that women seemed to really like stick and knife work. I think they appreciate and grasp the flowing nature better than many men.

As far as where T-cat is coming from, I have never heard a bad thing about Rick Faye and his group, and have trained quite a bit with a couple of his students/instructors.

Preach on, Tomcat!

In threads like these, Dinsdale and I seem to be patting each other on the back a lot. Now I’m afraid to meet you in real life for fear of you finding out how big of a jerk I REALLY am. :slight_smile:

I was mainly trying to address the OP RE: art and basic concepts of knife fighting. But as Dinsdale pointed out, nothing beats live training. Don’t be one of those people who carries a knife thinking that they will use it for defense if you’ve never had any training…you’ll just end up dead. My instructer estimated that he had less than a 20% chance of coming out of a knife fight with an un-trained person unscathed. 0% if the person had any training. You ARE going to get cut, so watch out.

Take care-
-Tcat (who despite run-on posts is actually not that experienced. The more I learn, the more I find out that I don’t know dink.)

These drills have exactly the same relation to real fighting that kata do. The stick-clicking drills are basically single-person kata done in mirror image with an opponent. This is much more effective than doing them alone because you get the resistance of hitting a real target instead of just swatting air. You also develop the timing and reflexes required to react to and block strikes. They’re also a great entry to one- and three-step sparring just like repetitive drills like Wing Chun’s chi sao are used to transition into sparring. As you say, they’re not fighting, they’re drills, but I wouldn’t discount an art that included these drills any more than I would discount an empty-hand art that included kata or shadow boxing.

I feel the same way.
The closer I get to Blackbelt, the more I realize I have so much to learn.
Gah! Good thing I enjoy it so much.

micco- do you post at the
selfdefenseforums also?

No, but I’ll check it out. I do lurk at e-budo, but too many years in Usenet’s rec.martial-arts taught me that too much talking about training gets in the way of my actual training. I enjoy the occasional MA thread on SDMB, but try not to get too involved.