# Know any "recursive acronyms" ? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 21, 2000, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828 "2000-10-21T23:13:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![richman2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@richman2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richman2)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/1 "2000-10-21T23:13:57Z")
They seem to be becoming popular. **GNU** claims its initials mean **GNU is Not Unix** **WINE** claims its initials mean **WINE Is Not an Emulator** In these cases, recursive acronymns appear to be just faulty logic, but maybe there’s a trend to be spotted anyway. When I mentioned this at work, someone said Lyndon Johnson did lots like that. The one for his army draft: **FAIR** was supposed to mean **Fair And Impartial Random**. I guess he really was after “redundant acronymns”. ---
**Author:** ![lovelee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@lovelee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lovelee)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/2 "2000-10-21T23:20:41Z")
Another Unix-ish one: PINE means Pine Is Not Elm Both are mail readers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/3 "2000-10-22T00:56:33Z")
PIN number ---
**Author:** ![Rasa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rasa/32/3578_2.png) [@Rasa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rasa)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/4 "2000-10-22T01:08:43Z")
The whole Windows NT thing annoys me… the 2000 startup screen says “Built on Windows NT technology!” Um, so it’s build on Windows New Technology Technology? On a side note, on NPR they were talking about the HIV virus in Africa, and the reporter kept calling it the “HI virus”, which I thought was interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/5 "2000-10-22T01:10:41Z")
MUNG - Mung Until No Good From the [Not the RPI Handbook](http://www.rpi.edu/~postom/not.quite.rpi.handbook) ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/6 "2000-10-22T01:12:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rasa \* > \*\*The whole Windows NT thing annoys me… the 2000 startup screen says “Built on Windows NT technology!” Um, so it’s build on Windows New Technology Technology? > > On a side note, on NPR they were talking about the HIV virus in Africa, and the reporter kept calling it the “HI virus”, which I thought was interesting. \*\* Ooh, simulpost. NT does NOT mean “New Technology.” It means NT. That’s it. Just as MMX does NOT mean multimedia extensions. Of course, both actually DO mean what they claim not to mean, but officially, they are just cool combinations of letters. ---
**Author:** ![Rasa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rasa/32/3578_2.png) [@Rasa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rasa)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/7 "2000-10-22T01:19:02Z")
Hmm, all the “Microsoft confidential” (oooo… scary) training docs I had when I did Win2k support said it meant “New Technology”. But I’ve been wrong before ;). ---
**Author:** ![slackergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@slackergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slackergirl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/8 "2000-10-22T01:22:03Z")
Not quite what you asked for, but here’s another one from the department of redundancy department… ATM machine Drives me nuts every time I hear it. ---
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/9 "2000-10-22T01:27:50Z")
From the thread title I thought you meant acronyms that were composed of initials of other acronyms – if you combined the FBI, the USAF and NASA and called the new organization FUN, that would be a recursive acronym, IMO. I work in defense contracting and it gets that crazy at times, although no real examples leap to mind at the moment. However, one acronym everyone around here knows is TLA: Three-Letter Acronym. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/10 "2000-10-22T01:58:17Z")
Am I the only one (thus far) to say that “acronym” means a pronouncable word made up of a series of letters, rather than an abbreviation such as “NT”? As far as recursive acronyms go, I am certain that a great many **supposed** acronyms came to pass only in the most recent decades, when there was quite a trend for having zippy-sounding little names, and a sudden trend for finance-related magazines written and edited (or not edited) with a view to quick popular sales, and no time to think. Just realised - there should be an old (or even young fogey) alert here. BUT I do admit that some acronyms can be clever and fun. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/11 "2000-10-22T02:18:13Z")
Dilbert once worked on **TTP** , which stands for **The TTP Project**. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/12 "2000-10-22T03:33:17Z")
FUN would not be a recursive acronym since it doesn’t call itself. Same with ATM machine, and HIV virus. ---
**Author:** ![yESTERDAY\_mAN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a87d85/32.png) [@yESTERDAY\_mAN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yESTERDAY_mAN)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/13 "2000-10-22T03:51:03Z")
The CMA Awards. The Country Music Awards Awards. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/14 "2000-10-22T03:57:12Z")
We find 4 more in the jargon file entry [http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/recursive-acronym.html](http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/recursive-acronym.html) Cygnus - Cygnus, your GNU support Liar - Liar imitates apply recursively Eine - Eine is not emacs Zwei - Zwei was eine, initially Plus, there are some backronyms for EMACS that are recursive, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/15 "2000-10-22T04:39:26Z")
First: anything good (or bad) enough for Dilbert is ditto for me. Second: one entity that changed its name (well, OK, then, only if I believe a friend of a friend) was the **Sheffield Higher Information Technology Education** Initiative. ---
**Author:** ![Wonko\_The\_Sane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/258eb7/32.png) [@Wonko\_The\_Sane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wonko_The_Sane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/16 "2000-10-22T13:06:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rasa \* > \*\*Hmm, all the “Microsoft confidential” (oooo… scary) training docs I had when I did Win2k support said it meant “New Technology”. But I’ve been wrong before ;). \*\* Rasa is right! NT does stand for New Technology. ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/17 "2000-10-22T18:05:44Z")
well, not recursive, but redundant: NIC card. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/18 "2000-10-22T18:34:18Z")
I notice that a lot of these acronyms that go redundant seem to be because we expect the acronym to be a special case of a common word. Why on earth were “card” and “machine” made part of these acronyms anyway? NIC card and ATM machine. Given how ATM can have different meanings: asynchronous transfer mode automatic teller machine It’s hardly surprising that people have tacked on a “machine” to the end to make meaning clear. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/19 "2000-10-22T19:50:39Z")
Yeah, because it’s so hard to figure out from the context whether someone wants to get money from an automatic transaction machine or an asynchronous transfer mode. :rolleyes: From their commercials, I used to figure ADAP stood for ADAP Discount Auto Parts. It seems to me that this trend is really confined to Unix applications, which are often the source of cheesy puns. And Flymaster, damn, I haven’t seen that in a while. It really does need to be updated, though. Half of campus has been remodelled since that came out. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828/20 "2000-10-22T20:00:08Z")
I just knew someone was going to say that. I should’ve posted a context. I’ve actually gotten thrown off in a discussion once by something sorta like this. “So, have you use ATM before?” ok. that wasn’t the exact question, but I had no idea if they were talking about modes or machines. How about this: “Do you think the First Union banking network should rely on ATM as it’s primary means of connecting with the customers?” Are we referring to a protocol or machine? Again, it’s more effort then one should have to spend. And in the case of the NIC **card**. If someone doesn’t know what a NIC is, adding card gives them some idea of where it is in the machine, and how it was installed or replaced. Anyway, this is getting way more attention then it deserves, so I am self-diagnosing myself as avoiding my take-home midterm. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-any-recursive-acronyms/37828.md?page=2)