# Know what? FUCK your thoughts and prayers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299 "2016-06-13T23:25:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/261 "2016-06-17T03:16:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Do you really want to define a position by its most idiotic advocates? Because you’ve got more than a few idiots on your side of the fence too. Did you read the post I was responding to? It was doing exactly that. > [@](#): > > Oh I see. Pro-gun people are a diverse range of individuals of all backgrounds with entirely rational bases for their views, but gun control advocates are a monolithic block who all want an absolute ban on all guns due entirely to kneejerk reactions to public tragedies and with no substantial data to present. Yeah, that’s fair. No not all pro-gun people are entirely rational, but the post by Der Trihs that I wasw responding to painted pro-gun folks like they’re all Ted Nugent. Did you read the post I was responding to? Are you on some weird device that doesn’t let you see quoted text? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/262 "2016-06-17T03:21:44Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Says the guy who denies there’s a problem at all. > > What is the rate of murders that you think we should consider acceptable? It’s at least 30,000 per year, as you’ve established, but is it more? Is there any number that would let you think there’s something wrong, instead of offering only derision of those who don’t accept your own number? > > FYI You’d be the first of the board’s fetishists to answer that one at all, much less honestly. Right, **Damuri**? The number of gun deaths is about 30,000. Thats mostly suicides. There is no real problem with our suicides relative to other countries. Of course we should work to reduce suicides but in a country awash in guns, our suicide rate is pretty fucking average for wealthy industrialized nations. Our murder rate is significantly higher than western european and east asian countries. I think I have said that this is a problem many many times but apparently I don’t give a shit unless I support elvis’s idiocy. I have proposed licensing and registration (along with federal preemption of all state and local gun laws and repeal of all other gun laws along with a shall issue federal carry permit). But apparently a compromise means only supporting the licensing and registration part. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/263 "2016-06-17T04:05:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The number of gun deaths is about 30,000. Thats mostly suicides. > > There is no real problem with our suicides relative to other countries. Of course we should work to reduce suicides but in a country awash in guns, our suicide rate is pretty fucking average for wealthy industrialized nations. :dubious: (no, not about the average, but the idea that guns are not making it easy for people to decide to off themselves) > **[Australia confiscated 650,000 guns. Murders and suicides plummeted.](https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback)** > > In the wake of the killing in Uvalde, here’s what America can learn from Australia’s response to tragedy. > [@](#): > > There is also this: 1996 and 1997, the two years in which the NFA was actually implemented, saw the largest percentage declines in the homicide rate in any two-year period in Australia between 1915 and 2004. > > Pinning down exactly how much the NFA contributed is harder. One study concluded that buying back 3,500 guns per 100,000 people correlated with up to a 50 percent drop in firearm homicides. But as Dylan Matthews points out, the results were not statistically significant because Australia has a pretty low number of murders already. > \*\* > However, the paper’s findings about suicide were statistically significant — and astounding. Buying back 3,500 guns correlated with a 74 percent drop in firearm suicides. _Non-gun suicides didn’t increase to make up the decline._\*\* > > There is good reason why gun restrictions would prevent suicides. As Matthews explains in great depth, suicide is often an impulsive choice, one often not repeated after a first attempt. Guns are specifically designed to kill people effectively, which makes suicide attempts with guns likelier to succeed than (for example) attempts with razors or pills. Limiting access to guns makes each attempt more likely to fail, thus making it more likely that people will survive and not attempt to harm themselves again. > **[Faking waves: how the NRA and pro-gun Americans abuse Australian crime stats](https://theconversation.com/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats-11678)** > > The Sandy Hook massacre and President Obama’s response to it has refocused attention on impact of regulation on American gun crime. Crime statistics before and after the implementation of gun laws provide… Now, I do know that in other industrialized nations trains are one preferred method, but the case of Australia points to a significant reduction of suicide as a result of controlling guns, (And even with the confiscations there are still Australians with guns, specially in farms as NPR reported recently) Even looking at those reductions in crime and suicide I still think that attempting to confiscate all guns in the USA would be bananas, I would still make it easy for people trained and licensed to get guns, but there is a need to better identify the ones that should not get access to them. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/264 "2016-06-17T08:52:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Did you read the post I was responding to? It was doing exactly that. > > No not all pro-gun people are entirely rational, but the post by Der Trihs that I wasw responding to painted pro-gun folks like they’re all Ted Nugent. Did you read the post I was responding to? Are you on some weird device that doesn’t let you see quoted text? I refer you to [post #234](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19409554&postcount=234). Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/265 "2016-06-17T14:30:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But it’s something _achievable_. So it’s a place to work on. Is that really not obvious? Eliminating or even significantly reducing these tail end events are probably the LEAST achievable goals in gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/266 "2016-06-17T14:50:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :dubious: (no, not about the average, but the idea that guns are not making it easy for people to decide to off themselves) We’ve posted data on this a shitload of times on various gun control threads. We used OECD rates, we used NATO rates, we used global rates and in every case the US suicide rate was around (or below) the median. The lowest suicide rates seem to be around the mediteranean and catholic countries (which is why you see relatively low suicide rates despite huge murder rates in some latin American countries. > [@](#): > > [Australia confiscated 650,000 guns. Murders and suicides plummeted. | Vox](http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9212725/australia-buyback) > [Faking waves: how the NRA and pro-gun Americans abuse Australian crime stats](http://theconversation.com/faking-waves-how-the-nra-and-pro-gun-americans-abuse-australian-crime-stats-11678) > > Now, I do know that in other industrialized nations trains are one preferred method, but the case of Australia points to a significant reduction of suicide as a result of controlling guns, (And even with the confiscations there are still Australians with guns, specially in farms as NPR reported recently) > **[Trends in hanging and firearm suicide rates in Australia: substitution of...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12882416/)** > > This study examined the increase in the rate of suicide by hanging and an apparently simultaneous decrease in the rate of suicide by firearm as hypothetical evidence that Australian males have substituted one method of suicide for another. Trends in... Your source might be cherry-picking a few years that show a reduction in gun suicides but over a longer term, people figure out other ways of killing themselves. > [@](#): > > Even looking at those reductions in crime and suicide I still think that attempting to confiscate all guns in the USA would be bananas, I would still make it easy for people trained and licensed to get guns, but there is a need to better identify the ones that should not get access to them. I can agree that the focus should be on the person and not the implement. In addition to licensing and registration, I think we should also focus on things like legalizing drugs and eliminating much of the financial incentive that people have to shoot each other. I think we should destigmatize depressions and mental illness so that people are less likely to shoot themselves. I think we should have a universal database of domestic abusers and mental illness so that we can more effectively apply the laws we already have. But banning AR-15s to prevent mass shootings is like banning goldschlager to prevent drunk driving and date rape. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/267 "2016-06-17T14:52:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I refer you to [post #234](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19409554&postcount=234). Mea culpa. OK, sorry I didn’t see that until later. I thought you might have some sort of technical glitch that prevented you from seeing quote text. Would it be safe to say that these erroneously comments directed at me should have been directed at the people I was responding to? ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/268 "2016-06-17T15:17:05Z")
I kind of agree with the OP sentiment. No matter how passionately I might agree with a cause, I’d still be too humiliated to ever attend a “candlelight vigil” in its support. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/269 "2016-06-17T15:18:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We’ve posted data on this a shitload of times on various gun control threads. We used OECD rates, we used NATO rates, we used global rates and in every case the US suicide rate was around (or below) the median. The lowest suicide rates seem to be around the mediteranean and catholic countries (which is why you see relatively low suicide rates despite huge murder rates in some latin American countries. > > [Trends in hanging and firearm suicide rates in Australia: substitution of method? - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12882416) > > Your source might be cherry-picking a few years that show a reduction in gun suicides but over a longer term, people figure out other ways of killing themselves. Your source is from 2003. You still have to realize that data does not remain static. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/270 "2016-06-17T21:27:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Your source is from 2003. You still have to realize that data does not remain static. Past data does. Unless numbers get revised the numbers remain static. or are you saying that the ban had an effect that was hibernating until After 2003? Your cite was highlighting two years immediately surrounding the ban to argue that the ban reduced suicides generally. This benefit evaporates when you look at more than those two years. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/271 "2016-06-17T21:31:58Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I kind of agree with the OP sentiment. No matter how passionately I might agree with a cause, I’d still be too humiliated to ever attend a “candlelight vigil” in its support. I’m still waiting to see what sort of “action” the Op is going to take to “actually save lives” or if he is going to satisfy himself with bitching and moaning on the internet. I mean, peace rallies are not enough for him so wtf is the OP/internet tough guy/man of action going to do? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/272 "2016-06-17T22:15:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Past data does. Unless numbers get revised the numbers remain static. or are you saying that the ban had an effect that was hibernating until After 2003? > > Your cite was highlighting two years immediately surrounding the ban to argue that the ban reduced suicides generally. This benefit evaporates when you look at more than those two years. NO [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/08/02/did-gun-control-work-in-australia/) > [@](#): > > So what have the Australian laws actually done for homicide and suicide rates? Howard cites a study (pdf) (2012) by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University finding that the firearm homicide rate fell by 59 percent, and the firearm suicide rate fell by 65 percent, in the decade after the law was introduced, without a parallel increase in non-firearm homicides and suicides. That provides strong circumstantial evidence for the law’s effectiveness. > [@](#): > > What is significant is the decline the laws caused in the firearm suicide rate, which Leigh and Neill estimate at a 74 percent reduction for a buyback of that size. This is even higher than the overall decline in the suicide rate, because the gun buybacks’ speed varied from state to state. In states with quick buybacks, the fall in the suicide rate far exceeded the fall in states with slower buybacks: > > Tasmania did a quicker buyback, and saw a large decline in suicides, while the Australian Capital Territory did a slower buyback, and a slower decline. The study fits with a pattern of research in the United States that finds a strong correlation between gun possession and suicide rates, as University of Chicago public health Professor Harold Pollack details here. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/273 "2016-06-17T22:21:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m still waiting to see what sort of “action” the Op is going to take to “actually save lives” or if he is going to satisfy himself with bitching and moaning on the internet. I mean, peace rallies are not enough for him so wtf is the OP/internet tough guy/man of action going to do? Not sure what he proposes, but I do think that we should pressure our congress critters to do the right thing, as you are correct on that one. Peace rallies are not useful here; and if the congress critters do the usual and shot down new legislation? Well, then it is time to throw the rascals outs and by pure “coincidence” almost all of the ones that resort to obstruction who are in the pockets of the NRA are Republicans. > **[GOP to Allow Gun Control Votes After 15-Hour Filibuster: Senator](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/filibuster-ends-after-gop-agrees-allow-gun-control-votes-senator-n593396)** > > An agreement was apparently reached to allow votes on whether to ban people on a terror watch list from buying guns and to expand background checks. > [@](#): > > Filibuster Ends After GOP Agrees to Allow Gun Control Votes: Senator > > Senate Democrats ended a nearly 15-hour filibuster early Thursday after Republican Party leaders reportedly agreed to allow votes on two proposed gun control measures. > > Sen. Chris Murphy, a Democrat from Connecticut, said that a compromise had been reached. Votes would be held on whether to ban people on the government’s terrorist watch list from obtaining gun licenses and whether to expand background checks to gun shows and internet sales, he added. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/274 "2016-06-17T23:27:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But it’s something _achievable_. So it’s a place to work on. Is that really not obvious? In the whole issue of gun violence, stopping the lone shooter bent on waging destruction is the most difficult thing to achieve. So, no, it’s not the most obvious place to work on, unless your vision is clouded by the sensational new stories like this one. Meanwhile, 30 people are murdered every day in the US, and they rarely even makes the nightly news that day, much less a presidential hoo-hah and all the gnashing of teeth that goes along with it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/275 "2016-06-18T00:25:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’m still waiting to see what sort of “action” the Op is going to take to “actually save lives” or if he is going to satisfy himself with bitching and moaning on the internet. I mean, peace rallies are not enough for him so wtf is the OP/internet tough guy/man of action going to do? That from a guy who’s actively opposed to saving lives if it means threatening his precious. I take sane people seriously. Not you. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/276 "2016-06-18T00:53:11Z")
[Thoughts And Prayers: The Game](http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com/) Perhaps this will help explain things a little better to the Thoughts And Prayers crowd. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/277 "2016-06-18T13:19:48Z")
Good one. [Here’s another.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hdX1MUOgQw) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/278 "2016-06-18T13:23:01Z")
**John** , _you_ are one of the ineffectiveness-worshiping excuse makers the OP was actually targeting (it’s been, predictably, hijacked by people who literally lack the ability to understand the ability of human life, and can therefore not be reached). _You_ are part of the problem. But you don’t need to stay that way. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/279 "2016-06-18T17:23:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > **John** , _you_ are one of the ineffectiveness-worshiping excuse makers the OP was actually targeting (it’s been, predictably, hijacked by people who literally lack the ability to understand the ability of human life, and can therefore not be reached). > > _You_ are part of the problem. But you don’t need to stay that way. You forgot to call him evil. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299/280 "2016-06-19T02:56:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Not sure what he proposes, but I do think that we should pressure our congress critters to do the right thing, as you are correct on that one. Peace rallies are not useful here; and if the congress critters do the usual and shot down new legislation? Well, then it is time to throw the rascals outs and by pure “coincidence” almost all of the ones that resort to obstruction who are in the pockets of the NRA are Republicans. > > [Filibuster Ends After GOP Agrees to Allow Gun Control Votes: Senator](http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/filibuster-ends-after-gop-agrees-allow-gun-control-votes-senator-n593396) I don’t have a problem with universal background checks. I have a problem with using the watch list to deny constitutional rights without due process. I notice they aren’t pursing an assault weapons ban. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/know-what-fuck-your-thoughts-and-prayers/757299.md?page=15)